"Going for the Visual"

(Snowbird) wrote
My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

Michael

(Michael) wrote:
That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

I plug HPN into my GPS, climb to 3000, and keep turning the little
airplane icon until the track and bearing say the same number. Then
what?

I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)? And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only
once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment.

So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now
what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

As somebody who flies mostly in the Gulf of Mexico, with spotty radar and
communications coverage, I get them all the time, pretty much every IFR
flight offshore. Center knows we can't talk below 2000' or so, and radar
coverage will also be lost. A cruise clearance gives you all the airspace
at and below the cruise altitude until you report out of it. If you report
leaving an altitude, you can't climb back up to it, but until you report
leaving it (if you do report it) you can go up and down all you like. The
cruise clearance includes the instrument approach of your choice, and a
missed approach clearance if you miss. We have a standard missed in a
letter of agreement, as well as lost comm instructions. The airspace
around your destination is yours until you cancel IFR or report a missed
approach.

You can descend to whatever altitude you like, down to the MEA, and to the
published altitude for any transitions you fly. A direct clearance can
make things difficult, because of terrain clearances. You can fly direct
to the airport, an IAF, or whatever, because ATC must protect all the
airspace, because the cruise clearance is a clearance for any approach.
That's why you don't get them very often up there. I'm not familiar with
the airspace, so I can't comment on the routing you postulated, but in
reality you can do whatever you like, as long as you can maintain a safe
altitude. I would likely set myself up for the most direct published
approach, and fly that, unless I broke out and had the airport in sight.
You can fly the visual at any time you have the airport in sight. A cruise
clearance is a wonderful thing, if you can get it, because it lets you do
pretty much whatever you like.

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

My understanding is that you can stooge around if you need to, but good
planning should obviate a lot of stooging. Judgement is always necessary,
especially when flying IFR.

--
Regards,

Stan

Roy Smith wrote:


As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life,

And you won't in that airspace.


so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

You go to White Plains, staying between the MEA and 3000 until you see
the airport or get to a fix on an approach, shoot the approach and
cancel like at any nontowered airport.



I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

Yes.



OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)?

Whenever you want.


And when do I begin my descent out of 3000?

When you are established on the approach as per the plate.



So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual?

Yes.


I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now
what?

Pick another approach and do it.


If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

Yes.



I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

You can do whatever you want until you land or give up.

Roy Smith wrote
What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

Well, I doubt you would ever get that at HPN (even at night, the area
is pretty busy) but something like that has been known to happen at
Huntsville (UTS) where 2200 is a perfectly valid IFR altitude but
RADAR coverage below about 4000 just won't happen. I like to take
students there (assuming their airplanes are fast enough to make the
trip worthwhile) when we have a stratus layer, just so they can get
that "You are on your own" feeling, and understand what it's like to
do the full approach (and maybe the full missed approach) without
being able to talk to anyone.

Anyway, my point is that I know what it's like to be cut loose 30
miles from the airport, even if I never have heard the magic word
(cruise) because out here it is done. If you pull up the VOR-DME A
approach for UTS (http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../UTS_vd_gA.pdf)
you will note that it has 3 IAF's. Out there, you don't normally get
a clearance to one of them - you get a clearance for the approach.
Right away that should trip an alarm - the exact route is undefined!
What this means in practice is this - the controller doesn't care.
He's perfectly happy to block out a huge chunk of airspace for you,
because nobody else wants it.

I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

Why not? Your clearance is good for any altitude between 3000 and the
minimum applicable IFR altitude. As long as you can assure that you
will comply with 91.177, you may descend at your discretion. If
you're on a random route, all you need is 1000 ft above obstacles
within 4 nm (since the terrain is not mountainous). If you're on an
airway, HPN is well within 22nm of CMK, and the MOCA's are all lower
than 3000. That's the whole point of a cruise clearance - you own
everything from 3000 on down.

OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)?

At any point. You are the only guy around. Nobody else is using the
airspace, or you would never have gotten that clearance. Just make
sure that you can comply with 91.177 on your random route without
exceeding 3000.

And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only
once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment.

Well, see above. Maybe yes, maybe no.

So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Sounds good to me so far.

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that.

No problem. MSA is 3000 and your clearance is to cruise 3000. Since
you never reported vacating 3000, it's still yours.

Now
what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

Well, since you have yet to complete an approach, I can't see why not.

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

I would think the latter. Remember, you got that clearance because
you're the only idiot flying around there. You were given a big block
of airspace, and you own it until you either cancel IFR or report that
you can't get in and need to do something else.

Michael

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
(Snowbird) wrote
My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Snowbird) wrote
Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

You recall correctly. The visual is the only choice here.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?


d

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Snowbird) wrote
Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

You recall correctly. The visual is the only choice here.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?


I say "d" with a twist: The controller knows there is something in the book
about a cruise clearance, but doesn't know how a cruise clearance works.
This seems most likely to me, since the controller also doesn't know how a
visual approach works either...

Chip, ZTL

Since this topic is being beat into submission as usual, I'll
add a pet peeve of a lot of controllers I know, myself included:

N1234: "airport in sight"
controller: "cleared visual approach"
N1234: "roger, we'll cancel IFR"

This happens daily, why? What is the point in reporting the airport
and a) not requesting the visual, if it's wanted, or, b) canceling in
the first transmission if the visual isn't wanted? Someone brought
up wasted transmissions, there's an example.

Speaking of wasted transmissions, and someone used the example
of five transmissions to get the Visual approach sequence rolling,
the controller who will be issuing the approach should on initial
call-in advise of what to expect. This should make it clearer
and what's expected of the pilot later. Example:
"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight" (technically now I guess we have to say
the name of the airport and it's position - is it done? not often)
Anyway, that transmission sure shouldn't leave much doubt in
anyone's mind. It's also a good time if the pilot is requesting something
other than that.

Cruise Clearances: the reason it's not used much and rarely offered,
here anyway, is terrain and radio/radar coverage. It's basically
a block altitude from whatever you give away, to the ground, and
if it doesn't work out, back up to whatever altitude you assign. That's
one hell of a chunk of airspace to lock up. And you are never sure
how long you are really giving it away for as you may not hear the
aircraft cancel. Also things not used often or on a regular basis,
controllers get rusty on, let's be honest.
Contact Approaches: Read last sentence, just not requested enough
and pilots and controllers both get rusty on it. Example: had a guy
ask for one at an airport with no SIAP, another one asked for one
where the tower said they were totally IFR less than a mile visibility,
virtually impossible to accomplish. On the controller side, you'll see
the "standby" as they ask their supervisor if/how to do it.
Some observations,
Chris