Late Astronauts Fly In Space Without Medical Certificate

Skywise wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

Snipola
I'm not paying for the comments you mention, but we are all paying for
NASA's decision to include incinerated human remains aboard this
mission to Pluto. What will NASA do if the discoverer of the next
planet to which they decide to send a spacecraft has chosen not to be
cremated? Will they send rotten human flesh into space at our
expense? Where will this dubious practice lead?
Snipola

I have to ask, how much do you think it is costing *YOU* to add
those ashes on the mission?

Here's a suggestion. Why not email NASA and ask them for details
about the how much extra it costs placing those ashes on the craft
for each each tax payer.

How much does the craft weigh?

How much do the ashes weigh?

What is the total cost of the mission?

From that you should be able to figure out the cost of the ashes.

Then spread that out over all the taxpayers.

I'd be astonished if it cost more than a penny per person.

I bet somewhere in NASA there is already a document covering this.

Brian

Following up on this...

From the Launch Press Kit at (top right corner):
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ne...ews/index.html

Mission cost: $700 million
Space craft weight: 478 kg

From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat..._United_States

Population of US, December 2005: 298 million (estimate)

Cost per person per gram of weight: .00049 cents

In my brief search I found no informaiton on exactly how
much of Clyde's remains were on board, but I doubt is was
even as much as a gram.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:27:24 -0000, Skywise
wrote in
::

Skywise wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

Snipola
I'm not paying for the comments you mention, but we are all paying for
NASA's decision to include incinerated human remains aboard this
mission to Pluto. What will NASA do if the discoverer of the next
planet to which they decide to send a spacecraft has chosen not to be
cremated? Will they send rotten human flesh into space at our
expense? Where will this dubious practice lead?
Snipola


From the Launch Press Kit at (top right corner):
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ne...ews/index.html

Mission cost: $700 million
Space craft weight: 478 kg

From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat..._United_States

Population of US, December 2005: 298 million (estimate)

Cost per person per gram of weight: .00049 cents

In my brief search I found no informaiton on exactly how
much of Clyde's remains were on board, but I doubt is was
even as much as a gram.


So your thesis is, that as long as the per capita amount of tax money
misappropriated by NASA is small, that sort of malfeasance is
acceptable?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
So your thesis is, that as long as the per capita amount of tax money
misappropriated by NASA is small, that sort of malfeasance is
acceptable?

I doubt that's his thesis. My guess is that, as with mine, the question is
how much YOU are paying. YOU are the one complaining. Many taxpayers are
satisfied with how their money is being spent.

I don't know why "Skywise" thinks the ashes are less than a gram (about a
teaspoon, I'd guess?), but I agree they are not heavy. My grandfather's
ashes didn't weigh even a kilogram, if I recall correctly. They definitely
weren't as heavy as two kilograms. Using Skywise's numbers, that puts the
cost at still under a penny (just as he guessed).

Even if I were bothered by the concept of someone's ashes riding along to
Pluto, a half-cent misappropriation of my tax dollars by the US government
is a drop in the bucket compared to the other things they spend money on and
which I object to. When the stuff that's tens and hundreds of my dollars is
dealt with, then I would consider worrying about the half-cent problems.

IMHO, it's pretty irrational and not at all scientist-like to fixate on such
a teensy tiny issue when the huge elephant-sized ones are still unresolved.

Pete

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:50:56 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

IMHO, it's pretty irrational and not at all scientist-like to fixate on such
a teensy tiny issue when the huge elephant-sized ones are still unresolved.

Pete


It costs around $100,000 per pound of any kind of matter to be put
into low earth orbit. A quarter of a pounder steak costs about
$25,000.

But, We "THINK", and for that reason, it is a good thing for us to go
there.

Mike Weller

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
So your thesis is, that as long as the per capita amount of tax money
misappropriated by NASA is small, that sort of malfeasance is
acceptable?

I doubt that's his thesis. My guess is that, as with mine, the question
is how much YOU are paying. YOU are the one complaining. Many
taxpayers are satisfied with how their money is being spent.

BINGO!!!


I don't know why "Skywise" thinks the ashes are less than a gram (about
a teaspoon, I'd guess?), but I agree they are not heavy. My
grandfather's ashes didn't weigh even a kilogram, if I recall correctly.
They definitely weren't as heavy as two kilograms. Using Skywise's
numbers, that puts the cost at still under a penny (just as he guessed).
Snipola

I had done further research as I had no idea how much is left after
cremation. According the wikipedia article on the subject, about 5%
of the orignal mass is left, so given a 200lb person that worked out
to a few kilo's max.

I conjectured that less than a gram is on board because all the
confirming statements about the presence of said ashes state "a
portion of" his ashes are on board. That clearly indicates that not
all of his ashes are flying, but probably just a representative
small sample for the purpose of honoring the man who discovered
Pluto. There's no need to carry much. It's a symbol of honor.

So, shall we move on to the issue of the digital disc carried on
the Cassini spacecraft with the digitized signatures of hundreds
of thousands of people? (including myself) IIRC there's a similar
disc on New Horizons as well.

Yep, according to: http://www.space.com/astronotes/astronotes.html

...the New Horizons spacecraft bound for Pluto is toting a
number of items, including a U.S. flag, as well as a compact
disc containing more than 430,000 names.

And

...a piece of SpaceShipOne

No, Larry, I think you're missing the point of all these things
that are flown on these craft. These symbols are useful because
it gives the average joe blow (or jane) something to connect with.
99% of people don't understand the significance of exploring these
worlds and spending all this money. By giving people some way of
connecting themselves personally to these missions, they feel more
involved. Perhaps it's nothing more than PR BS, but if it means
getting more people aware of the importance of doing this kind of
science, I'm all for it.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:38:14 -0000, Skywise
wrote in
::

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
So your thesis is, that as long as the per capita amount of tax money
misappropriated by NASA is small, that sort of malfeasance is
acceptable?

I doubt that's his thesis. My guess is that, as with mine, the question
is how much YOU are paying. YOU are the one complaining. Many
taxpayers are satisfied with how their money is being spent.

BINGO!!!


That point of view is like asserting the cost of a home is the value
of a single mortgage payment . The cost to taxpayers is clearly the
entire additional sum (if any) resulting from the inclusion
(preparation, testing, launch, ...) of the ashes aboard the New
Horizons mission to Pluto.


I don't know why "Skywise" thinks the ashes are less than a gram (about
a teaspoon, I'd guess?), but I agree they are not heavy. My
grandfather's ashes didn't weigh even a kilogram, if I recall correctly.
They definitely weren't as heavy as two kilograms. Using Skywise's
numbers, that puts the cost at still under a penny (just as he guessed).
Snipola

I had done further research as I had no idea how much is left after
cremation. According the wikipedia article on the subject, about 5%
of the orignal mass is left, so given a 200lb person that worked out
to a few kilo's max.

It works out to less than 5 kilograms, but sheds no light on the
weight of the ashes aboard.

I conjectured that less than a gram is on board because all the
confirming statements about the presence of said ashes state "a
portion of" his ashes are on board. That clearly indicates that not
all of his ashes are flying, but probably just a representative
small sample for the purpose of honoring the man who discovered
Pluto. There's no need to carry much. It's a symbol of honor.

While I agree, that the amount is probably small, I don't think the
data you cite supports that, as any amount less than the entire amount
of ashes would be considered a 'portion'.

So, shall we move on to the issue of the digital disc carried on
the Cassini spacecraft with the digitized signatures of hundreds
of thousands of people? (including myself) IIRC there's a similar
disc on New Horizons as well.

Yep, according to: http://www.space.com/astronotes/astronotes.html

...the New Horizons spacecraft bound for Pluto is toting a
number of items, including a U.S. flag, as well as a compact
disc containing more than 430,000 names.

And

...a piece of SpaceShipOne


I'm flabbergasted to learn this.

No, Larry, I think you're missing the point of all these things
that are flown on these craft. These symbols are useful because
it gives the average joe blow (or jane) something to connect with.

Yeah. It finally began to dawn on me that that is the only plausible
explanation.

99% of people don't understand the significance of exploring these
worlds and spending all this money. By giving people some way of
connecting themselves personally to these missions, they feel more
involved. Perhaps it's nothing more than PR BS, but if it means
getting more people aware of the importance of doing this kind of
science, I'm all for it.


If it works in keeping the research funded, it's difficult argue
against the practice. But I still feel uneasy about it.

This may sound strange, but it has occurred to me, that the New
Horizons spacecraft will travel the cosmos for perhaps billions of
years. While the odds of an alien life form, with the intelligence to
at least understand what the probe is, are remote, what would you
think of a race of organisms that chose to include the charred remains
of a representative of their species aboard an otherwise completely
functional piece of mechanical equipment?

To me it just seems an anachronism, an act appropriate for stone age
beings, not those sufficiently advanced to achieve such a
technological feat. But given the longs odds and funding
requirements, I believe I've come accept it.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
I doubt that's his thesis. My guess is that, as with mine, the question
is how much YOU are paying. YOU are the one complaining. Many
taxpayers are satisfied with how their money is being spent.

BINGO!!!

That point of view is like asserting the cost of a home is the value
of a single mortgage payment . The cost to taxpayers is clearly the
entire additional sum (if any) resulting from the inclusion
(preparation, testing, launch, ...) of the ashes aboard the New
Horizons mission to Pluto.

It is only "like" that assertion if you carry the assertion to its logical
conclusion: that is, that it's as if nearly the entire mortgage was deemed
acceptable by the payer, except for the very last payment (representing your
sole dissenting voice as a taxpayer).

And of course, when you do that, you see how silly it is for one person to
presume to voice a complaint on behalf of the hundreds of millions of
taxpayers who most likely don't mind an extra penny or so of their money
spent honoring a key figure in astronomy.

[...] what would you
think of a race of organisms that chose to include the charred remains
of a representative of their species aboard an otherwise completely
functional piece of mechanical equipment?

That would likely depend entirely on the nature of the organism finding the
remains. If they are anything like humans, they will comprehend that the
ashes are there as a way to honor a person. They may even correctly infer
that the person was somehow related to the spacecraft.

If they are nothing like humans, they might (for example) come to the
conclusion that the ashes are the remains of a human who was sent along with
the spacecraft as part of its normal operation, but who through some
untimely accident was incinerated. They may or may not stop to hope that
the incineration was quick and painless, but regardless, if they have no
customs similar to human approaches to dealing with the dead, they likely
will only arrive at hypotheses explaining the ashes which seem rational to
them.

It seems absurd to me to presume that we can even begin to imagine what
another organism might thing of our behavior. Our activities are likely
unfathomable to most, if not all, the organisms right here on Earth. To
concern ourselves with what an extraterrestrial organism might think seems
futile.

To me it just seems an anachronism, an act appropriate for stone age
beings, not those sufficiently advanced to achieve such a
technological feat. But given the longs odds and funding
requirements, I believe I've come accept it.

Our current social customs are not very far removed from those that existed
thousands of years ago, all the way back to the beginning of written
history, and probably even before (as inferred through archeological studies
of cultural remains predating written history). To expect them to change,
never mind disappear entirely, even in the last millennia, never mind the
last generation, is to fail utterly to comprehend human society.

Granted, that's a common flaw among people who are highly experienced
computer users. But it's a flaw, nonetheless.

Pete

On 2006-01-30 21:29, Peter Duniho wrote:
-snip-
If they are nothing like humans, they might (for example) come to the
conclusion that the ashes are the remains of a human who was sent along with
the spacecraft as part of its normal operation, but who through some
untimely accident was incinerated. They may or may not stop to hope that
the incineration was quick and painless, but regardless, if they have no
customs similar to human approaches to dealing with the dead, they likely
will only arrive at hypotheses explaining the ashes which seem rational to
them.
-snip-

A (possible) future reply from Pluto, dated Y-mas 2017AD:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Earthlings!

Thanks for the toys you sent, our kids are having a ball with the
manouvering jets. We gave them your spaceship model at our celebration
of our Yule, which is mostly a long & boring dark night out here on the rim.

Can't seem to fit the part marked 'spaceship one' anywhere on the
ship; could you send a more detailed drawing & some more glue with next
mission?

We are not quite sure if the grey stuff marked P.L. was glue, as it
didn't stick very well to the model?

som of our scientists/chefs though it could also be used as a
calcium-flavoured soda drink when hydrated, but in my opinion it's not a
winning recipe, and it tasted a bit past the 'best before date', really.

Keep up the good work, we need more toys here for next Y-mas, which
should occur in 250 of your years or so, unless you could pop over for a
visit at our new year already?

(We could send some meteorites your way if you like? That's what we use
for toys here otherwise.)

Cheers from Zzwyxbgl family & friends on Pluto!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:29:28 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
[...]

Our current social customs are not very far removed from those that existed
thousands of years ago, all the way back to the beginning of written
history, and probably even before (as inferred through archeological studies
of cultural remains predating written history). To expect them to change,
never mind disappear entirely, even in the last millennia, never mind the
last generation, is to fail utterly to comprehend human society.

It seems that I always expect too much of my fellow inhabitants of our
planet Earth. However, lately it seems to me, that retrograde
evolution is in operation; disappointing.

Granted, that's a common flaw among people who are highly experienced
computer users.

It's not so much that I fail to comprehend human society, as it is my
feeble attempt at self-deception motivated by a reluctance to accept
society's glaring lack of enlightenment. Take Texas, for example:
ranked 50th scholastically, but number one in executions.