"Going for the Visual"

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Snowbird) wrote
Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

You recall correctly. The visual is the only choice here.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?


I say "d" with a twist: The controller knows there is something in the book
about a cruise clearance, but doesn't know how a cruise clearance works.
This seems most likely to me, since the controller also doesn't know how a
visual approach works either...

Chip, ZTL

Since this topic is being beat into submission as usual, I'll
add a pet peeve of a lot of controllers I know, myself included:

N1234: "airport in sight"
controller: "cleared visual approach"
N1234: "roger, we'll cancel IFR"

This happens daily, why? What is the point in reporting the airport
and a) not requesting the visual, if it's wanted, or, b) canceling in
the first transmission if the visual isn't wanted? Someone brought
up wasted transmissions, there's an example.

Speaking of wasted transmissions, and someone used the example
of five transmissions to get the Visual approach sequence rolling,
the controller who will be issuing the approach should on initial
call-in advise of what to expect. This should make it clearer
and what's expected of the pilot later. Example:
"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight" (technically now I guess we have to say
the name of the airport and it's position - is it done? not often)
Anyway, that transmission sure shouldn't leave much doubt in
anyone's mind. It's also a good time if the pilot is requesting something
other than that.

Cruise Clearances: the reason it's not used much and rarely offered,
here anyway, is terrain and radio/radar coverage. It's basically
a block altitude from whatever you give away, to the ground, and
if it doesn't work out, back up to whatever altitude you assign. That's
one hell of a chunk of airspace to lock up. And you are never sure
how long you are really giving it away for as you may not hear the
aircraft cancel. Also things not used often or on a regular basis,
controllers get rusty on, let's be honest.
Contact Approaches: Read last sentence, just not requested enough
and pilots and controllers both get rusty on it. Example: had a guy
ask for one at an airport with no SIAP, another one asked for one
where the tower said they were totally IFR less than a mile visibility,
virtually impossible to accomplish. On the controller side, you'll see
the "standby" as they ask their supervisor if/how to do it.
Some observations,
Chris

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:48:17 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
wrote:

"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?

It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

Even better is when the "visual" is on an ATIS, if available.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote
"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?
It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.

Even better is when the "visual" is on an ATIS, if available.

Can skip that info if pilot advises he has the ATIS, but since the
rule says the controller shall advise of the approach on initial
contact or as soon as possible thereafter, the pilot has to advise
of the ATIS on his initial contact. Most airports I do approaches
to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

See 7110.65 Par 4-7-10
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0407.html#4-7-1

4-7-10. APPROACH INFORMATION

a. Both en route and terminal approach control sectors shall provide
current approach information to aircraft destined to airports for which they
provide approach control services. This information shall be provided on
initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. Approach information
contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states the
appropriate ATIS code or items 3-5 below may be omitted for pilots destined
to uncontrolled airports when they advise receipt of the automated weather;
otherwise, issue approach information by including the following:

1. Approach clearance or type approach to be expected if two or more
approaches are published and the clearance limit does not indicate which
will be used.

2. Runway if different from that to which the instrument approach is
made.

3. Surface wind.

4. Ceiling and visibility if the reported ceiling at the airport of
intended landing is below 1,000 feet or below the highest circling minimum,
whichever is greater, or the visibility is less than 3 miles.

5. Altimeter setting for the airport of intended landing.


Chris

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
link.net...

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.


How are you going to know the current weather at fields without weather
reporting?



Can skip that info if pilot advises he has the ATIS, but since the
rule says the controller shall advise of the approach on initial
contact or as soon as possible thereafter, the pilot has to advise
of the ATIS on his initial contact. Most airports I do approaches
to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

See 7110.65 Par 4-7-10
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0407.html#4-7-1

4-7-10. APPROACH INFORMATION

a. Both en route and terminal approach control sectors shall provide
current approach information to aircraft destined to airports for which
they
provide approach control services. This information shall be provided on
initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. Approach information
contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states the
appropriate ATIS code or items 3-5 below may be omitted for pilots
destined
to uncontrolled airports when they advise receipt of the automated
weather;
otherwise, issue approach information by including the following:

1. Approach clearance or type approach to be expected if two or more
approaches are published and the clearance limit does not indicate which
will be used.

2. Runway if different from that to which the instrument approach is
made.

3. Surface wind.

4. Ceiling and visibility if the reported ceiling at the airport of
intended landing is below 1,000 feet or below the highest circling
minimum,
whichever is greater, or the visibility is less than 3 miles.

5. Altimeter setting for the airport of intended landing.


I'm going to an uncontrolled field without weather reporting. How are you
going to comply with that paragraph?

We have some airports that have AWOS, but we don't get any of
that info into our computer, but the pilot can receive it.
We have a couple that we have no weather reporting, but the pilot
can get it from their company on the ground, and they let us know.
And theres a couple that MAYBE they can get someone to answer
unicom and get the weather.
There are only a few left I can think of that have no SIAP, no AWOS,
and lucky to have anything living within 20nm of it. Those pilots
usually know what they are dealing with way in advance and have
done it regularly and cancel way out. They arent going to get a
contact approach, those are the ones that will on occasion ask for
a cruise clearance, but those are also airports with sometimes no
phones and no cellular coverage.
In the end it's up to the pilot to get the weather, and if it's not
available we have to advise them of that, too.
Luckily the weather at those airports are VFR probably 350 days
out of the year, but talk about remote. One guy called from a
phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time to drive back to the
airport (30mins away), get started and go. A couple have recently
worked out private approaches and someone available on the
ground associated with the airplane to get them the weather, Lifeguard
flights usually, with an employee of the hospital nearby giving them
the conditions.
Chris


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
link.net...

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.


How are you going to know the current weather at fields without weather
reporting?



Can skip that info if pilot advises he has the ATIS, but since the
rule says the controller shall advise of the approach on initial
contact or as soon as possible thereafter, the pilot has to advise
of the ATIS on his initial contact. Most airports I do approaches
to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

See 7110.65 Par 4-7-10
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0407.html#4-7-1

4-7-10. APPROACH INFORMATION

a. Both en route and terminal approach control sectors shall provide
current approach information to aircraft destined to airports for which
they
provide approach control services. This information shall be provided on
initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. Approach information
contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states the
appropriate ATIS code or items 3-5 below may be omitted for pilots
destined
to uncontrolled airports when they advise receipt of the automated
weather;
otherwise, issue approach information by including the following:

1. Approach clearance or type approach to be expected if two or more
approaches are published and the clearance limit does not indicate which
will be used.

2. Runway if different from that to which the instrument approach is
made.

3. Surface wind.

4. Ceiling and visibility if the reported ceiling at the airport of
intended landing is below 1,000 feet or below the highest circling
minimum,
whichever is greater, or the visibility is less than 3 miles.

5. Altimeter setting for the airport of intended landing.


I'm going to an uncontrolled field without weather reporting. How are you
going to comply with that paragraph?

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote:
One guy called from a phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time
to drive back to the airport (30mins away), get started and go.

I believe it's a TERPS requirement that to have an approach you need to
have a working and publicly accessable landline phone on the field.
Don't know anything about departures, though :-)

I once got into a ****ing contest with Verizon (they were probably
calling themselves Bell Atlantic back then) when they tore the only
public phone out of a small airport around here because it wasn't
generating enough revenue. I had gone to call for a clearance and found
the booth still there, but wires just hanging out where there used to be
a phone.

I talked to everybody I could think of (the Public Service Commission,
the FSDO, the airport manager, NY Tracon, AOPA, etc). Nobody seemed too
worried about it.

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
link.net...

We have some airports that have AWOS, but we don't get any of
that info into our computer, but the pilot can receive it.
We have a couple that we have no weather reporting, but the pilot
can get it from their company on the ground, and they let us know.
And theres a couple that MAYBE they can get someone to answer
unicom and get the weather.
There are only a few left I can think of that have no SIAP, no AWOS,
and lucky to have anything living within 20nm of it. Those pilots
usually know what they are dealing with way in advance and have
done it regularly and cancel way out. They arent going to get a
contact approach, those are the ones that will on occasion ask for
a cruise clearance, but those are also airports with sometimes no
phones and no cellular coverage.
In the end it's up to the pilot to get the weather, and if it's not
available we have to advise them of that, too.
Luckily the weather at those airports are VFR probably 350 days
out of the year, but talk about remote. One guy called from a
phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time to drive back to the
airport (30mins away), get started and go. A couple have recently
worked out private approaches and someone available on the
ground associated with the airplane to get them the weather, Lifeguard
flights usually, with an employee of the hospital nearby giving them
the conditions.


What about those fields with SIAPs but no weather reporting at all?

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:27:41 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
wrote:

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote
"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?
It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.

Oops, I overlooked the ATIS in your initial callup and I agree that if the
pilot does not report it, that you should request it. I was always taught
to advise the controller on my initial callup that I have the ATIS.

But, it is frequent for me to be asked if I have the ATIS even when I have
just called in reporting that I DO have the ATIS!

So far as the other, the pilot should know that he has to report the
airport (or preceding a/c) in sight in order to get the visual. So when
you say "expect", that primes me to report the airport in sight.

Most airports I do approaches to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Do you say you have "the ATIS" or do you say you have the
appropriate/current ATIS code. Makes a difference to the controller.

JPH

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:27:41 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote

"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?
It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.


Oops, I overlooked the ATIS in your initial callup and I agree that if the
pilot does not report it, that you should request it. I was always taught
to advise the controller on my initial callup that I have the ATIS.

But, it is frequent for me to be asked if I have the ATIS even when I have
just called in reporting that I DO have the ATIS!

So far as the other, the pilot should know that he has to report the
airport (or preceding a/c) in sight in order to get the visual. So when
you say "expect", that primes me to report the airport in sight.


Most airports I do approaches to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)