Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
wrote:

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
.. .

Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
It is CO that is the poison!!!

Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.

I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
displaces breathable air.

Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
Carbon dioxide is poisonous.

Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.

Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.

Yes, by *poisoning* you.

No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.

Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
can kill after CO exposure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
"Marc J. Zeitlin" wrote:

..... An excess of CO2 will not kill you.

Actually, Todd, that's not true.

You're right, I was wrong. I was thinking of nitrogen
excluding oxygen (been playing with lots of liquid nitrogen
recently and had N2 on my mind.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo in
a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of the
active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic gases
rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a transient
unmonitored event.

Harold Burton

The molecular weight of N2 is 28 compared to 32 for O2 so pure N2 is
slightly lighter than air, but not enough to make a difference. CO2
(mw=44) is significantly heavier than air and can pool in low lying
areas. The bigger problem is, if a large amount of N2 (or CO2) is
rapidly released in an open area, it will displace the air and reduce
the amount of oxygen in that area and cause suffocation.

Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.

Releasing CO2 in a sealed space will start causing breathing problems
as soon as the CO2 pressure in the room reaches about 3/4 psi, even
though the same amount of oxygen is available for breathing. A CO2
partial pressure of more than 1 1/2 psi is considered lethal.

kd5sak wrote:
I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo in
a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of the
active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic gases
rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a transient
unmonitored event.

Harold Burton

("kd5sak" wrote)
I think nitrogen and carbon dioxide are both heavier than air ( that is,
they will pool in low areas) A sufficient excess of either can suffocate
you. You can wind up drowning without getting wet. As a matter of fact, I
saw a cable channel episode recently describing the loss of a few buffalo
in a small valley in Yellowstone Park from such an emission near one of
the active geyser areas. That incident probably involved a mix of volcanic
gases rather than just CO2 but no one knows for sure, since it was a
transient unmonitored event.


PBS - Savage Planet: Degassing Lake Nyos

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageplanet.../indexmid.html

"Some 1,700 people living in the valley below Lake Nyos in northwestern
Cameroon mysteriously died on the evening of August 26, 1986. Word of the
disaster spread, and scientists arrived from around the world. What they
discovered was that the crater lake, perched inside a dormant volcano, had
become laden with carbon dioxide gas. This gas had suddenly bubbled out of
the lake and asphyxiated nearly every living being in the surrounding valley
community."


Montblack

"Roger" wrote in message
...
No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it.

Actually, it does more than that. The CO2 level in your blood affects your
breathing reflex, and while some elevation is what helps you know to take
another breath, too much can interfere with your breathing in other ways.

If anything, CO is more of a "mechanical blockage", because "all" it does is
bind to the blood cells, preventing them from carrying O2. CO2 actually
messes with your body's natural breathing control.

I wouldn't really call either a "poison", but it seems to me that the words
has been used pretty loosely by everyone involved in this thread.
Nit-picking about whether either CO or CO2 seems fruitless.

Pete

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
wrote:

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...

Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
It is CO that is the poison!!!
Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
displaces breathable air.
Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
Carbon dioxide is poisonous.

Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.

Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
Yes, by *poisoning* you.

No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.

Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
can kill after CO exposure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

IIRC CO complexes the hemoglobin leading to a clot. The damage is not
reversible but after a lot of time in fresh air the body will clear out
the damaged hemoglobin. That's much different than CO2.

"Jeff Shirton" wrote in message



If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
"carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself...

OK. From that Google search:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/co2.html
"Carbon monoxide CO, unlike CO2, is a bad poison. ... Carbon monoxide binds
very strongly to the iron in the hemoglobin in the blood. ... Because carbon
monoxide binds to hemoglobin so strongly, you can be poisoned by carbon
monoxide even at very low concentrations..."

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0810371.html
"It [carbon dioxide] does not burn, and under normal conditions it is
stable, inert and nontoxic. ... Although it [carbon dioxide] is not a
poison, it can cause death by suffocation if inhaled in large amounts."

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bull...995/nst13.html
"Chemical asphyxiants - Carbon monoxide, hydrogen, cyanide, nitrites,
hydrogen sulphides. ... Simple asphyxiants are physiolocigal inert. ...
Victims exposed to them will suffer from lack of oxygen. Carbon dioxide and
methane are classic examples of simple asphyxiant. Chemical asphyxiants, on
the other hand, interfere with the body's ability to utilise oxygen, They
either prevent oxygen delivery (such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen
sulphide)..."

There are many others saying that CO is a poison while CO2 is not.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.

Although part of what you say is true, I disagree with the above paragraph. In particular the part insinuating that
the nitrogen has to be pressurized to be toxic. I had a job related experience in which a contractor working under
supplied breathing air respirator had a near fatal incident. The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.
If you can imagine trying to winch a grown man straight up 20' and pull him through a 18" manway while he flails
wildly about with superhuman strength ... you can imagine the dilemma we were in. He seemingly had a sole
determination to knock every ERT member off of a forty foot high vessel once we squeezed him through. By the time we
got him restrained and an oxygen mask on him that he couldn't rip off... well to a man, we thought at best he would
suffer brain damage. He did eventually recover but it was over a period of months. I personally know of two others,
(one an ex-co-worker), who were put in the hospital by breathing nitrogen. It isn't something to mess with. I agree
with those who state that CO messes with the Hemoglobin. We suffered one CO fatality when a technician went into a
small analyzer shack to calibrate a mass spectrometer. One of the flow gauges to the machine had an o-ring leak. He
apparently started feeling bad, and sat down in a chair. He didn't show up at lunch and the guys just thought he
drove into town for dinner. When he didn't show up for afternoon break, his co-worker went looking... way to late.
CO2 is a byproduct of our synthesis process and although it may not be a poison in the strictest sense, it will kill
you just as dead.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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Were there any chemical fumes in that tank he might have inhaled along
with the nitrogen?

JJS wrote:
"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

Releasing N2 in a sealed space will simply increase the pressure in the
room and cause no particular breathing problems because the room will
still have enough oxygen in it to breath. You won't have a problem
until the pressure gets high enough for the toxic effects of N2 to show
up (nitrogen narcosis). This takes several atmospheres of pressure.

Although part of what you say is true, I disagree with the above paragraph. In particular the part insinuating that
the nitrogen has to be pressurized to be toxic. I had a job related experience in which a contractor working under
supplied breathing air respirator had a near fatal incident. The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric. There was no pressure on the vessel and the

Joe Schneider
8437R

Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.