Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
wrote:

Morgans wrote:


"Roger" wrote

Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
suffocated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The first post about this said:

The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
There was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.

There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.

N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)

Richard

N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
mine rescue handbook)

"Drew Dalgleish" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
wrote:

Morgans wrote:


"Roger" wrote

Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
suffocated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The first post about this said:

The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
There was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.

There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.

N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)

Richard

N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
mine rescue handbook)

Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 23:31:17 -0600, "JJS" jschneider@remove socks
cebridge.net wrote:


"Drew Dalgleish" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:05:45 GMT, Richard Lamb
wrote:

Morgans wrote:


"Roger" wrote

Then he committed a sin for which job termination is usually
proscribed at most companies now days. You never, ever enter a vessel
that has been N2 purged unless bringing your own breathing air by
tank or hose. He entered without checking the O2 level and almost
suffocated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The first post about this said:

The catalyst vessel he was working in was under
nitrogen atmosphere to prevent the catalyst from going pyrophoric.
There was no pressure on the vessel and the
manway was open. He removed is mask to spit, then inhaled before
putting it back on. Instead of passing out, he
instantly went into violent convulsions and dropped the mask. Even with
an attendant equipped with a radio, and a
tripod, winch, and lanyard already set up and attached we only got him
out of the vessel alive by the grace of God.

There HAD to be something else in the atmosphere, Jim.

N2 just doesn't do that (does it???)

Richard

N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
mine rescue handbook)

Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.

Joe Schneider
8437R

Joe The ontario mine rescue website is www.masha.on.ca but I
couldn't find an on line copy of our training manuel so I'll type out
the appropriate couple paragraphs per vatim

When there is no oxygen in the atmosphere, loss of consciosness is
quicker than in drowning. Not only is the supply of oxygen cut off,
but the oxygen in the lungs is rapidly depleted. Loss of conscionsness
is followed by convulsions, then cessation of respiration.
The effects of extreme oxygen deficiency are so rapid that ones life
is in peril before one relizes the danger.

The answer to the second question is no. I ocasionally do confined
space work but not normally in irrespirable atmospheres. For
firefighting we wear BG4 appatatus witch is a pure oxygen rebreather.

JJS jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net wrote:

"Drew Dalgleish" wrote in message ...
snip
N2 doesn't do anything except displace O2 Lack of O2 normally causes
the victim to just pass out almost instantly followed by convulsions
then the cessation of respiration. ( quoted directly from the ontario
mine rescue handbook)

Drew, Can you point me to a link. A very quick google search didn't turn up much from Ontario. I'd like to verify
the "lack of O2 normally causes the victim to pass out almost instantly". Ever see someone in a choke lose
consciousness instantly or go into convulsions after they pass out. I've seen them go unconscious but it took
minutes not seconds and I've never witnessed follow up convulsions.

Totally different situations.

In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
(IIRC).

Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
there isn't much of that gas.

Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.

And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
the blood flowing through them.

Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message ...
Totally different situations.

In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
(IIRC).

Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
there isn't much of that gas.

Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.

And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
the blood flowing through them.

Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.

Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took
the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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JJS wrote:
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message ...

Totally different situations.

In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
(IIRC).

Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
there isn't much of that gas.

Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.

And, any further breaths simply make this worse, as they get rid of any
oxygen that may have been in the lungs as a remenant, or stripped from
the blood flowing through them.

Much the same thing (though slightly more severe, with the additional
possible complication of burst lungs) happens when you breath vacuum.


Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took
the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?

Joe Schneider
N8437R


I have to offer my thanks too, Ian.

Pretty Scary Stuff.


Richard

JJS jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net wrote:

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message ...
Totally different situations.

In one, you've got lungs full of stale air.
There is a reasonable amount of O2 in it, even after you pass out
(IIRC).

Hemeoglobin is very clever, but it's not magic.
It releases the molecule it's bound to (O2 or CO2) when it reaches somewhere
there isn't much of that gas.

Normally this is a good thing, but when the lungs are full of N2, not
only do you get the normal release of CO2, but the lungs now actively
strip oxygen from the blood, something which normally never happens.
snip
Ding! The light bulb is flickering. Thanks Ian, for being patient enough with me and taking the time to educate. I
was aware that hemoglobin exchanges CO2 and O2. I wasn't aware that it did so in the manner you describe releasing
either in a low presence of the gas in question. That is very interesting. I still do not understand why it took

Yup, it's a beautifully simple mechanism.

the victim so long to recover from a lack of oxygen unless there really was some brain damage that he recovered from
over time?? Do you have any links to the CO2/O2 exchange mechanism for further reading?

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci...ac2abacf99c7df

I _think_ this should work.
It's a thread on sci.space.tech, about vacuum breathing.

I can only assume that the long time to recover was due to slight brain
damage, due to the lack of oxygen.