An interesting trial flight attempt...

There is nothing preventing anyone in the US from doing this, except
available money, time, minuscule market, etc. I (and others) could hack
together a prototype using off the shelf components in a few months, but
that would still be months of effort (and tens of thousands of dollars)
short of being a production device. Perhaps someone will be willing do
this all for the love of soaring (like the FLARM folks did), but they
certainly won't be doing to to make a profit. You got $50,000 to
$100,000? I can find someone to design it.

Yes, we're talking a really hot market, maybe as much as 500 units over
the next 5 years. And, you can get those sales if it is priced "right"
in glider pilot terms, which means essentially no profit. I expect
someone will jump in there any day now...

Marc, by your math (admittedly back of the envelope), if 200 glider
pilots each chipped in $500, someone could design it? I know nothing
about the costs of production of such a device, but say (worst case)
another $500 per unit? So for a grand those pilots would have a
working system. That's in my price range...

The obvious problem, of course, is that it only works if those 200
pilots all fly in the same area - so you have to convince the rest of
the glider pilots in the local area (or racing scene) to pony up the
$500 to get one. Or wait! Get SRA to make it optionally mandatory at
SSA sanctionned contests! Worked for ELTs! Maybe make a bunch of them
and rent them to pilots at contests? A couple of avoided collisions
and I bet there would be increased interest in the device by a lot of
glider pilots.

The point is - I see lots of guys sticking expensive transponders in
their ships which (in my opinion) provide little protection from most
mid-air collision threats, while there is little being done in
exploiting more useful avenues.

Perhaps a market for flight schools, that have a lot of power trainers
working VFR in busy airspace? (again - all xponder equipped but no TCAS
or warning by ATC if not on ATC freq).

Just saying it can't be done guarantees it won't be done. And just
thinking/talking about it doesn't make it happen, I know - but you have
to start somewhere.

Cheers,

Kirk

wrote:
Marc, by your math (admittedly back of the envelope), if 200 glider
pilots each chipped in $500, someone could design it? I know nothing
about the costs of production of such a device, but say (worst case)
another $500 per unit? So for a grand those pilots would have a
working system. That's in my price range...

You could get 200 US glider pilots to chip in $500 on something that
won't increase their L/D? You must be quite a salesman 8^)

FLARM costs around ~500 Euros, so it is certainly possible. The most
sensible thing is to license the FLARM design for production/sale in the
US. Payment of a suitable license fee, and indemnification against the
evils of the US court system would likely bypass their liability
concerns. It would be necessary to swap in a wireless module using FCC
acceptable frequencies.

An entirely new system would require a significant amount of hardware
design, software development, and testing. Paying for this would push
the amortized costs over even 500 units beyond your price range. This
would only work with an essentially volunteer effort.

In either case, a testing lab would need to be hired to do FCC Part 15
conformance verification as an "intentional radiator". This is way
outside of my area, but I would guess that the cost for this alone is
somewhere in the $20K to $50K range.

The point is - I see lots of guys sticking expensive transponders in
their ships which (in my opinion) provide little protection from most
mid-air collision threats, while there is little being done in
exploiting more useful avenues.

Perhaps transponders aren't useful in your area, but they are in mine.
I have had more surprise encounters with commercial and military
aircraft, than I have with other gliders.

I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

Perhaps a market for flight schools, that have a lot of power trainers
working VFR in busy airspace? (again - all xponder equipped but no TCAS
or warning by ATC if not on ATC freq).

ADS-B is a much better solution for this, particularly with the ground
stations in place (as they are now on much of the east coast), which
will allow ATC to see you. If you have a traffic display (which could
be implemented using a PDA), not only will you see other ADS-B equipped
aircraft, you'll also see Mode C/S equipped aircraft through the data link.

Just saying it can't be done guarantees it won't be done. And just
thinking/talking about it doesn't make it happen, I know - but you have
to start somewhere.

True, but to get much farther, it'll take time and money. Any
volunteers? I can help with the software and bad advice...

Marc

You're wrong there, Marc. I'm not an ex-fighter pilot, and I had this
warning from my Flarm on the ridge. I took an evasive action and we didn't
collide. 10 sec is a lot when something is yelling at you.

Bert
TW

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...

I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

Bert Willing wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...
I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

You're wrong there, Marc. I'm not an ex-fighter pilot, and I had this
warning from my Flarm on the ridge. I took an evasive action and we
didn't collide. 10 sec is a lot when something is yelling at you.

Real world experience definitely trumps my speculation.

By the way, if anyone here in the US is interested, for another project
I've found multiple sources of FCC approved (no conformance testing
required, if used with specific antennas) 900 MHz RF modules with as
much as 20 mile line of sight range using 1/2 wave whip antennas. There
might be a way to do this without a huge up-front hardware and
certification costs. Software and testing would still be a big effort...

Marc

I recently had a year off from gliding and have come back to my gliding club
(www.ddsc.org.au) in Australia, to find the whole club fleet and most
private owners Flarm equipped. I believe we are the first fully equipped
club in Australia.

While getting checked out again over the last weeks in the club's two
seaters, I have to say the Flarm is amazingly good.

It is simply, predictable and will be going into our Nimbus soon.

Robert

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
om...
Bert Willing wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...
I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...
You're wrong there, Marc. I'm not an ex-fighter pilot, and I had this
warning from my Flarm on the ridge. I took an evasive action and we
didn't collide. 10 sec is a lot when something is yelling at you.

Real world experience definitely trumps my speculation.

By the way, if anyone here in the US is interested, for another project
I've found multiple sources of FCC approved (no conformance testing
required, if used with specific antennas) 900 MHz RF modules with as much
as 20 mile line of sight range using 1/2 wave whip antennas. There might
be a way to do this without a huge up-front hardware and certification
costs. Software and testing would still be a big effort...

Marc

To add to what Robert wrote:

It is actually the OzFlearm - a unit manufactured in Australia based and
fully compatible with the original Flarm. Details at
http://www.rf-developments.com/page008.html

The money for club gliders and 2 tugs were raised by asking members for
donations.

Paul

robert wrote:
I recently had a year off from gliding and have come back to my gliding club
(www.ddsc.org.au) in Australia, to find the whole club fleet and most
private owners Flarm equipped. I believe we are the first fully equipped
club in Australia.

While getting checked out again over the last weeks in the club's two
seaters, I have to say the Flarm is amazingly good.

It is simply, predictable and will be going into our Nimbus soon.

Robert

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
om...

Well, maybe this is the answer for the US market? A quick scan of their web
site didn't reveal and restrictions to use in the US. So a question to all
glider instruments dealers in the US, what will it take to start selling
this unit in the U.S.?
I think if it will be IGC approved, we have a winner, and soon other flight
recorders will follow by offering flarm functionality...

Ramy

"PB" wrote in message
...
To add to what Robert wrote:

It is actually the OzFlearm - a unit manufactured in Australia based and
fully compatible with the original Flarm. Details at
http://www.rf-developments.com/page008.html

The money for club gliders and 2 tugs were raised by asking members for
donations.

Paul

robert wrote:
I recently had a year off from gliding and have come back to my gliding
club (www.ddsc.org.au) in Australia, to find the whole club fleet and
most private owners Flarm equipped. I believe we are the first fully
equipped club in Australia.

While getting checked out again over the last weeks in the club's two
seaters, I have to say the Flarm is amazingly good.

It is simply, predictable and will be going into our Nimbus soon.

Robert

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
om...

You could get 200 US glider pilots to chip in $500 on something that
won't increase their L/D? You must be quite a salesman 8^)

I for one, will be more than happy to chip in $500 for something that
will significantly increase safety. Most of us spend up to about $1000
on parachutes which we probably never use, so why not a Flarm like
device? I hope someone will either license the Flarm or produce
something similar, and then make it mandatory... Till then we will
continue average at least one mid air per year in the US...

Ramy

Ramy wrote:
You could get 200 US glider pilots to chip in $500 on something that
won't increase their L/D? You must be quite a salesman 8^)


I for one, will be more than happy to chip in $500 for something that
will significantly increase safety. Most of us spend up to about $1000
on parachutes which we probably never use, so why not a Flarm like
device? I hope someone will either license the Flarm or produce
something similar, and then make it mandatory... Till then we will
continue average at least one mid air per year in the US...

I gave a short presentation on FLARM at the 2005 SSA convention, and
have tried to generate some interest in it. Very few people have had any
interest in it, unlike the huge response in Europe. I think the
difference is we don't have nearly the mid-air collision problem that
they do in the Alps, Pyrenees, and other places. Their airspace can be
far denser with gliders than ours, even including the White mountains
and the ridge-runners along the Alleghenies, and as a result, they run
into each other more frequently.

The poor response I get may be reasonable: personally, I think a
transponder is a better value at, say, $2000, than FLARM at $620Euro
(US$745). My experience is the glider that is likely to run into me is
the one I'm thermalling with and already know about. Except for
contests, I see more airplanes en route than gliders.

Even so, I hope people will pursue it. There are mitigating features;
for example, the FLARM will log a flight in IGC format, though it's not
secure at this point. If that happened, it wouldn't cost much more than
just an IGC logger. Busy clubs could benefit from it's use with a ground
station and automatic logging of tows and club glider use by it's
members, and there are other applications under way.

Besides technical people, I think we need some good lawyers that can
analyze the liability situation, then create a means to license or
otherwise acquire the technology from FLARM that would ease the concerns
of the FLARM developers.

I'd be willing to chip in at least $200 for starters.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

www.motorglider.org

I did a very rough analysis of another glider instrument, probable
market size, and necessary pricing he
https://www.freytag.us/twiki/bin/vie...rLiftDetectors

The good thing about the FLARM is that the design/function is resolved
so your costs are reduced there. But then you still have the risks of
distribution and, implicit, support.

Cheers,
Richard "H3"

Ramy wrote:
You could get 200 US glider pilots to chip in $500 on something that
won't increase their L/D? You must be quite a salesman 8^)

I for one, will be more than happy to chip in $500 for something that
will significantly increase safety. Most of us spend up to about $1000
on parachutes which we probably never use, so why not a Flarm like
device? I hope someone will either license the Flarm or produce
something similar, and then make it mandatory... Till then we will
continue average at least one mid air per year in the US...

Ramy