Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen is.
It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres for two reasons:
Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several
atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in
blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure is
released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). Helium has
neither of these properties.

But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you breath
nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious, have an
anoxic seizure, and die. It's the same mechanism as used by the suicide
who surrounds himself with non-burning natural gas in an oven. The
people you've seen get away with a breath or two of it on the residual
oxygen in their lungs and blood. They can't get away with it for long,
and there are a few deaths per year in the US from people persisting in
breathing toy-balloon oxygen for voice games. There are also a few
deaths to nitrous oxide breathing for intoxication, also for anoxia.

As others have noted, carbon monoxide is a metabolic poison and causes
problems even in the presence of normally adequate oxygen. Carbon
dioxide in high concentrations is primarily a dilutional asphyxiant but,
again as others have noted, also has metabolic toxic effects.

David


David Kazdan, MD, PhD
Anesthesiologist
Pilot

Roger wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
wrote:


Might we go a bit farther?

The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.


A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
beyond that?


Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?


"I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
but I really don't know. There are warnings about inhaling He, but
I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2. Still, He is used
as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
of getting the bends on deep dives.

There *must* be some one who reads this group who knows.


(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)


I should have gotten better grades!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



Richard

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
link.net...
Might we go a bit farther?

The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.

Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?

(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)


Richard

Take a look at this link under Potential Health Effects Information -- Warning:

http://www.iigas.com/heliumMSDS.htm



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wrote in message oups.com...

JJS wrote:
...

From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I
can't
really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation.

I think the proper term is asphyxiation.

--

FF

You may be right but most of the on line dictionaries I looked at said something similar to:
Noun 1. asphyxiation - the condition of being deprived of oxygen (as by having breathing stopped)
Synonyms: suffocation

I'm thinking that a reverse oxygen - carbon dioxide exchange is more insidious than ordinary suffocation. Perhaps
there is a medical term for this or maybe we need to invent a new one?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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"David Kazdan" wrote in message m...
Helium is almost exactly the dilutional asphyxiant that nitrogen is. It's used in deep-diving artificial atmospheres
for two reasons: Nitrogen is a weak anesthetic gas, producing intoxication at several atmospheres pressure--(nitrogen
narcosis"), and it's soluble enough in blood and other water-based body fluids to fizz out when the pressure is
released suddenly (the bends, caisson worker's disease). Helium has neither of these properties.

But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will
become unconscious, have an anoxic seizure, and die. It's the same mechanism as used by the suicide who surrounds
himself with non-burning natural gas in an oven. The people you've seen get away with a breath or two of it on the
residual oxygen in their lungs and blood. They can't get away with it for long, and there are a few deaths per year
in the US from people persisting in breathing toy-balloon oxygen for voice games. There are also a few deaths to
nitrous oxide breathing for intoxication, also for anoxia.

As others have noted, carbon monoxide is a metabolic poison and causes problems even in the presence of normally
adequate oxygen. Carbon dioxide in high concentrations is primarily a dilutional asphyxiant but, again as others have
noted, also has metabolic toxic effects.

David


David Kazdan, MD, PhD
Anesthesiologist
Pilot


Excellent post, David, thank you.

"David Kazdan" wrote in message
m...

. . . But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you
breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious,
have an anoxic seizure, and die. . . The people you've seen get away with
a breath
or two of it on the residual oxygen in their lungs and blood.

Excellent post and, as far as I know, your facts are correct.

But - I find it odd that person of your stated qualifications does not seem
to know the difference between "breath" and "breathe". ?????

Rich "One can be a typo. Two makes it an error. Three would be enemy
action." S.

Ouch, that's pretty bad. Sorry. No question about it, error. I rather
pride myself on not needing to use a spell checker, too. Ouch, ouch,
ouch. Need lidocaine.

David

Rich S. wrote:
"David Kazdan" wrote in message
m...

. . . But breath helium in the absence of oxygen and, just like if you
breath nitrogen in similar circumstances, you will become unconscious,
have an anoxic seizure, and die. . . The people you've seen get away with
a breath
or two of it on the residual oxygen in their lungs and blood.


Excellent post and, as far as I know, your facts are correct.

But - I find it odd that person of your stated qualifications does not seem
to know the difference between "breath" and "breathe". ?????

Rich "One can be a typo. Two makes it an error. Three would be enemy
action." S.

"David Kazdan" wrote in message
t...
Ouch, that's pretty bad. Sorry. No question about it, error. I rather
pride myself on not needing to use a spell checker, too. Ouch, ouch,
ouch. Need lidocaine.

I think I've got a thirty year old vial of it around hear someplace. . .

Rich S.

People HAVE died when they get too much Helium in their lungs.


"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
link.net...
Might we go a bit farther?

The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.

Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?

(Should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!)


Richard

JJS wrote:
wrote in message oups.com...

JJS wrote:
...

From what I've gleaned from the discussion I still wouldn't consider nitrogen poisoning a true "poisoning". I
can't
really say I'd consider it suffocation either, at least as I previously viewed suffocation.

I think the proper term is asphyxiation.

--

FF

You may be right but most of the on line dictionaries I looked at said something similar to:
Noun 1. asphyxiation - the condition of being deprived of oxygen (as by having breathing stopped)
Synonyms: suffocation

That is basicly what we are talking about, being deprived of oxygen.


I'm thinking that a reverse oxygen - carbon dioxide exchange is more insidious than ordinary suffocation. Perhaps
there is a medical term for this or maybe we need to invent a new one?


I think divers have a term for a similar phenomenum, _shallow water
blackout_.

http://www.freedive.net/chapters/SWB3.html

--

FF

On 6 Feb 2006 11:40:13 -0800, wrote:


Roger wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:50:04 GMT, Richard Lamb
wrote:

Might we go a bit farther?

The reason I ask is that I've seen people take big lungfuls of Helium,
which (obviously) doesn't produce the same effect.

A really big lung full can make you light headed in a hurry, but
beyond that?


Can someone explain why N is such a disaster but He doesn't?

"I think" it has to do with the partial pressure of He compared to N,
but I really don't know.

Partial Pressure of a gas is what the pressure would be if all the
other gasses were removed without changing the volume.

Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have
equal numbers of molecules (Avogadro's law). So no, that isn't
the explanation.

I thought Avogadro's Law (number the same?) was a gram molecular
weight of any element will have the same number of molecules as the
gram molecular weight for any other element. As I recall it's
6 X 10^28


There are warnings about inhaling He, but
I've not heard of any reactions like those of N2.

The warnings I have heard regard hydrocarbon contaminants
like compressor oils, putting the huffer at risk for chemical
pneumonia.

Still, He is used
as an N2 replacement in diving air at times to reduce the likely hood
of getting the bends on deep dives.


One presumes contaminants like compressor oils are filtered out
when the Helium is intended for that purpose, something one might
not bother to do for balloons.

I don't think in today's world compressor oils would be a problem with
He.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com