FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article

Larry Dighera wrote:
On 8 Feb 2006 14:05:06 -0800, "Mike Granby" wrote in
. com::

Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace?

The ATC facility in question would be that facility providing Approach
Control services.

I had a bizarre experience a while ago along these lines. Had VFR
flight following from Bradley Approach into Hartford/Brainard.

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

On 8 Feb 2006 18:32:15 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote in
::

Had VFR flight following from Bradley Approach into Hartford/Brainard.

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

I recall reading in FAA Order 7110.65, that it is the responsibility
of the air traffic controller providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service
to VFR aircraft to coordinate transition through Class B, C, D and E
surface area airspace, but I can't find it now:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/


Perhaps I was thinking of this:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-16
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would
require flight within a surface area for which the tower has
responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to
an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through
each area when in contact with a radar facility.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I recall reading in FAA Order 7110.65, that it is the responsibility
of the air traffic controller providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service
to VFR aircraft to coordinate transition through Class B, C, D and E
surface area airspace, but I can't find it now:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/


Perhaps I was thinking of this:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-16
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would
require flight within a surface area for which the tower has
responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to
an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through
each area when in contact with a radar facility.


Yes, you were thinking of that, and erroneously expanding it to include
Class B and C airspace. Coordination of a flight through a Class D surface
area by the overlying radar facility is appropriate because the airspace is
small, the flight through it will take only a few minutes, it is typically
surrounded by airspace being worked by the same controller, and the tower
has no responsibility for separation of airborne traffic. Class B and C
airspace is probably at least sixty miles across and may be well over a
hundred, separation of VFR aircraft is required, and the controller at the
point of exit is probably a different person and may be in a different
facility.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

I've heard this happen a number of times "nextdoor" to you at Republic. Each
time the pilot was very confused as to why they were being yelled at by the
tower. It seems to me an area that could use some improvement by the FAA. I
believe the proper phrase the Approach controller should use when not
handing off to a Class D tower is, "Radar service terminated, squawk VFR,
frequency change approved" as opposed to a straight "Contact Republic Tower
on 118.8." If Approach used the latter and the tower still had an issue, I
would think you have a valid point. Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a
Class D tower from flight following? I can't recall ever getting one.

Marco



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"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:
Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a Class D tower from flight following?

They certainly do at HPN. You (pretty much) can't get into HPN (Class D)
without talking to NY Approach first and getting a squawk. Tower knows
you're coming before you even call them. If you call up HPN Tower cold,
they (usually) tell you to remain clear of the CDAS and contact NY Approach
for sequencing.

But, then again, HPN seems to operate in their own little universe of
procedures, unlike any other Class D I've ever been to.

Marco Leon wrote:
Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a
Class D tower from flight following?

I've been handed to HFD & BAF from BDL, EWB from PVD, and SWF from NYC
to name a few, but most of the time it's squawk VFR, frequency change
approved, and off you go.

Yes.

"B a r r y" wrote in message
et...
Marco Leon wrote:
Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a
Class D tower from flight following?

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a Class D tower from flight following?


There really isn't any reason to. The typical initial call from the
arriving VFR aircraft to the tower includes all the pertinent information
anyway.

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a Class D tower from flight following?

Yes. When ever I fly to the Twin Cities MSP TRACON always coordinates
with Anoka County(ANE). My normal flightpath would take me about one
mile outside of Crystal's class D but I usually go inside it to see if
Approach says anything about it. They never do. They always tell me to
contact the tower 5-7 miles out, works real good in that area.

("Newps" wrote)
Yes. When ever I fly to the Twin Cities MSP TRACON always coordinates
with Anoka County(ANE). My normal flightpath would take me about one mile
outside of Crystal's class D but I usually go inside it to see if Approach
says anything about it. They never do. They always tell me to contact
the tower 5-7 miles out, works real good in that area.


http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite.../060201mn.html
Minneapolis Class B airspace redesign to take effect February 16
AOPA seeks to have VFR flyways added


Montblack