Busted IFR Checkride

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

Allen

A Lieberman wrote in
:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect
entry procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your
next move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of
travel.

Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

Allen


I can understand that a recommended entry will keep things neat and
tidy. But that can't be the reason for requiring holds for recency
experience. It's got to be something more important than that. A hold
ranks way up there with an instrument approach when it comes to
currency.

A VFR traffic pattern is not a fair comparison because the traffic
pattern could packed full of airplanes bumper to bumper. That can't be
the case under IFR. I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

Of course. All this is covered in TERPS

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives%20page.htm

If you read the chapter on holds, you will know more than you ever
wanted to about how these things are figured out. Faster airplanes are
allotted more protected airspace.

A Lieberman wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

From ATC's perspective, there is lots of protected airspace for a holding
pattern, unless you are holding at max speed (almost never less than 200
knots).

The entires are part of the criteria design to assure that you don't depart
protected airspace.

Some folks never get holds. Other, especially those who use the IFR system
often, get lots of holds. Most of them are direct entries, however.

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good feeling
for what it is all about.

wrote:

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good
feeling for what it is all about.

I think that this is significant. When I could get a hold instruction and
know how I'd enter it w/o a lot of work, my brain was more prepared for
IMC. Think of it as a mind-stretching puzzle which exercises situational
awareness.

- Andrew

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...

A Lieberman wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:


Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?


My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.


The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly

Dave Butler wrote:

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...


ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.

I'll give you something better than guesses. Controllers working traffic don't
care, perhaps, but their managers do. There are holding patterns in the New York
and Washington Center areas that are so close to each other, that speed is limited
to 200 knots above 6,000 to keep the patterns from overlapping. Improper entires,
at least in jets, could cause an aircraft to go into the other pattern's airspace.
This was demonstrated in holding pattern criteria meetings. Radar doesn't help,
because radar service is usually terminated in these busy patterns due to multiple
merging targets.




The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


That's right, they can't see well enough to help out in conjested airspace.



Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

In a Cessna 172, no doubt about it. But, the instrument rating is not a rating ride
limited to 172's.

wrote
In a Cessna 172, no doubt about it. But, the instrument rating is
not a rating ride limited to 172's.

It kind of is, though. Oh, I don't mean literally - but the lowest
published holding speed (other than STOL) that I've ever seen is 180
kts. I can't think of ANY airplane that won't COMFORTABLY hold at 120
kts or less that you will ever be able to fly without
insurance-mandated type-specific training, including instrument
training. Strictly speaking, since an instrument ride in a single
engine airplane always gets you an instrument rating limited to single
engine airplanes, and since the single engine jets all require type
ratings or LOA's anyway, it's not even an insurance issue. For all
practical purposes, there is no need to test an applicant taking an
instrument ride in a C-172 or equivalent on proper holding entries,
because he's not getting a rating that will allow him to fly IFR in
anything where they matter.

The only thing that really matters is that he can become reasonably
established on the inbound course before crossing the fix a second
time, and that only matters for approaches where the hold is the
published course reversal. Even that is somewhat questionable, since
he can always take a second trip around the hold to get established if
absolutely necessary.

Let's face it - the only real reason for teaching and testing the
holding entries is to develop and test for situational awareness.

Michael