Error Puts 3 Planes on Same Path at LAX

You know the old maxim as well as I do:

Pilot screws up, pilot gets killed.

Controller screws up, pilot gets killed.


Jim

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:30:11 -0800, "RST Engineering"
wrote in
::

You know the old maxim as well as I do:

Pilot screws up, pilot gets killed.

Controller screws up, pilot gets killed.


In light of the Administrator's determination to implement user fees
for ATC services, wouldn't now be the time to make the consequences
for ATC errors commensurate with the consequences to those aboard the
flights subject to those errors?

It's one thing for the FAA to insulate ATC personnel from litigation
and responsibility for their errors, and it's quite another thing for
a NonGovernmental Organization's personnel to escape accountability
for the errors they may commit.

It seems to me, that the most equitable policy would be for individual
ATC personnel responsible for operational errors to have the added
personnel responsibility to make monetary restitution to the estates
and survivors subjected errors they committed.

I'll bet in Canada if their ATC kills you, NavCanada would cheerfully refund
your $15.00.

In light of the Administrator's determination to implement user fees
for ATC services, wouldn't now be the time to make the consequences
for ATC errors commensurate with the consequences to those aboard the
flights subject to those errors?

Larry Dighera wrote:
It seems to me, that the most equitable policy would be for individual
ATC personnel responsible for operational errors to have the added
personnel responsibility to make monetary restitution to the estates
and survivors subjected errors they committed.

That giant sucking sound you would hear would be every traffic
controller immediately retiring, quiting, or otherwise exiting.
Furthermore, there would be no job applicants under those conditions.

NOW, who ya gonna call?

Besides, no one ELSE in this country is held responsible for their
mistakes (it sometimes seems like that, anyway...)

I know we treat ATCs like gods, and we do everything they tell us to,
and we pray to them to save our souls when we are stupid sometimes....
but after all, doggone it, they are human. Which means that if they
make a mistake and someone gets hurt, they'll feel real bad for a long
time. I used to know a former ATC guy. His lunch was pepto-bismol,
which he claimed he needed for ATC stress.
I don't like their union much, but all the controllers I've talked to
have been real nice and helpful, even when I was in the middle of a
mistake.

I also observed a tower controller make a couple mistakes in a very
busy pattern. It was still up to us pilots to see the problem and take
proper action.

wrote:

I don't like their union much, but all the controllers I've talked to
have been real nice and helpful, even when I was in the middle of a
mistake.

Same here.

I've also met some in person during tours and noted that many of them
are also pilots, some are CFI's and CFII's. So in the long run, many of
them fly in the same system they work on.

They're still people.

Nothing that involves human intervention is infallible, but humans
cross-checking other humans can drive the chance of an error becoming
more serious higher than Powerball odds.

On 23 Feb 2006 12:51:27 -0800, wrote in
. com::

Larry Dighera wrote:
It seems to me, that the most equitable policy would be for individual
ATC personnel responsible for operational errors to have the added
personnel responsibility to make monetary restitution to the estates
and survivors subjected errors they committed.

That giant sucking sound you would hear would be every traffic
controller immediately retiring, quiting, or otherwise exiting.
Furthermore, there would be no job applicants under those conditions.

NOW, who ya gonna call?

Of course your opinion regarding the dearth of ATC applicants is not
backed by any credible supporting facts. So with the same underlng
evidence, I'll contend that there will still be an adiquate supply of
responsible talant to fulfill ATC positions.

Besides, no one ELSE in this country is held responsible for their
mistakes (it sometimes seems like that, anyway...)

Have you ever received a traffic citation? Did you pay the fine?

I know we treat ATCs like gods, and we do everything they tell us to,

When you're on an instrument approach in IMC heading toward Saddleback
Peak (KSNA, runway 19R), you are relying on ATC to turn you before you
reach the granite directly in your path. Your safety is almost
totally in ATC's hands. There are times that the PIC must trust his
life and those of his passengers to ATC. At these times we must do
what ATC instructs us to do to remain safe, but relying on _another_
for my wellbeing is completely counter to my desire for safety. So
ATC responsibility is crusial, but they do not face the same
consequences as those whom they control. That doesn't seem equitable.

and we pray to them to save our souls when we are stupid sometimes....

Fortunately I haven't had that experience.

but after all, doggone it, they are human. Which means that if they
make a mistake and someone gets hurt, they'll feel real bad for a long
time.

Unfortunately, feeling real bad for a long time doesn't provide the
same level of motivation that paying for their mistake would.

I used to know a former ATC guy. His lunch was pepto-bismol,
which he claimed he needed for ATC stress.

That's one of the reasons ATC personnel are so well compensated.

I don't like their union much,

NATCA seems to be primarily focused on increasing ATC employment
numbers and wages to the exclusion of providing additional training
and assuring professional behavior among their ranks.

but all the controllers I've talked to
have been real nice and helpful, even when I was in the middle of a
mistake.

Ummm..

I also observed a tower controller make a couple mistakes in a very
busy pattern. It was still up to us pilots to see the problem and take
proper action.

Or at least request clearification from ATC.

Larry Dighera wrote:


Of course your opinion regarding the dearth of ATC applicants is not
backed by any credible supporting facts.

Because in this country no controller can be sued. No way I do this job
if I am exposed to the legal system for any minor perceived injustice,
not to mention an actual accident.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:52:25 -0700, Newps wrote
in ::


Larry Dighera wrote:


Of course your opinion regarding the dearth of ATC applicants is not
backed by any credible supporting facts.

Because in this country no controller can be sued. No way I do this job
if I am exposed to the legal system for any minor perceived injustice,
not to mention an actual accident.

No way? Why not? Have you ever had situations occur in which you
have had to be defended by the FAA?

Larry Dighera wrote:



Of course your opinion regarding the dearth of ATC applicants is not
backed by any credible supporting facts.

Because in this country no controller can be sued. No way I do this job
if I am exposed to the legal system for any minor perceived injustice,
not to mention an actual accident.


No way? Why not? Have you ever had situations occur in which you
have had to be defended by the FAA?

No because the FAA becomes the defendant. That's the deepest pocket out
there and stops the vast majority of lawsuits. But I have talked to
numerous aircraft that have crashed over the years. Lawsuits are not
about fixing a wrong, they are about squeezing money out of turnips.
Insurance companies don't fight lawsuits, they settle, which then drives
up premiums.

Larry Dighera wrote:

websurf1 wrote:
That giant sucking sound you would hear would be every traffic
controller immediately retiring, quiting, or otherwise exiting.
Furthermore, there would be no job applicants under those conditions.
NOW, who ya gonna call?

Of course your opinion regarding the dearth of ATC applicants is not
backed by any credible supporting facts. So with the same underlng
evidence, I'll contend that there will still be an adiquate supply of
responsible talant to fulfill ATC positions.

There isn't a dearth now. But I will prognosticate that dearth if the
controllers were to be held _personally_ liable for their mistakes.
Currently, controllers can be fired or otherwise disciplined through
their job structure. Any controllers reading this will correct that
statement if it is incorrect. That's a far cry different from
personal liability for something. Especially in today's litigious USA,
virtually any mistake {regardless of who makes it :( } would
result in a lawsuit. We all have responsibilities and consequences in
our jobs, but legal liability like this would dry up the applicant pool
to a trivial mud puddle.

Actually, this experiment is already being run. In many areas it is
getting harder to find an ob-gyn doctor. The malpractice insurance,
even if the doctor hasn't had a lawsuit, is prohibitively high.
Doctors hate this situation, patients don't benefit from it (If you
don't have a doctor, who ya gonna sue?). The only group benefitting is
the insurance companies.

Besides, no one ELSE in this country is held responsible for their
mistakes (it sometimes seems like that, anyway...)
Have you ever received a traffic citation? Did you pay the fine?
That method of law enforcement is a far cry different from personal
liability for mistakes.
First, _I_ am only in trouble to the limit of the fine, set by statute.
More to the point, the cop isn't liable at all, even if the ticket is
a boo-boo (unless I could demonstrate that he broke a law of some sort,
like a Rodney King beating thing.)

I also had a cop stop me once by mistake. He was not personally
financially liable for that mistake. If he were, he likely would not
accept the job. Who would need the headache? (There's enough people
out there who think cops are the bad guys anyway. Once in a while they
are of course, but it is rare.)

BTW, see the post by "Newps". Sounds like he is a controller. Sounds
like he just gave you his answer. He is probably credible since it is
his decision.


Unfortunately, feeling real bad for a long time doesn't provide the
same level of motivation that paying for their mistake would.
Who sank your rubber ducky? Methinks you are way too high on wanting
to make people pay.

I also observed a tower controller make a couple mistakes in a very
busy pattern. It was still up to us pilots to see the problem and take
proper action.
Or at least request clearification from ATC.
The situation did not need clarification. It needed some alertness and
some proper, though not immediate, action. No big deal. I left the
pattern a bit later to allow some traffic to decrease.