ASK 21 spin ballast installation

Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.



wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights? Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was this just a
misplaced reply for the "most ugliest gliders in the world"-thread? :-)

NoSpam wrote:
Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.

The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!), so it seems evidence
for this belief should be available. Do you know of any statistics that
suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely to have
spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?

I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents during training, so
one would have to balance any extra risk after training against the
reduced risk during training.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
"unspinnable" glider, I was taught "incipient spins" in a SGS-233. The
2-33 will spin, of course, but we never did that (probably because of
its age, but mainly because of Schweizer's letter stating not to spin
it). It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

How well did this training work? Well, a few weeks after I got my PPG I
took an introduction to aerobatics in a Blanik L13AC. First up were
spins - and I found my incipient spin training worked practically
automatically for recovering. Based on this experience, I would
categorically state that if I had ever found myself in a spin before
the aerobatics course, I would definitely have gotten out of it
(assuming I had the height, of course).

I don't really see how my situation would have changed if I was taught
in the ASK-21. There has never been any time during my flying career
that I haven't been paying attention to my flying. The danger of
stalling and/or spinning was always made abundantly clear to me, and
the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes for
countering either situation. The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't
matter....

-John

jcarlyle wrote:
I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
"unspinnable" glider...we never did that....

It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

...I would categorically state that if I had ever found myself
in a spin...I would definitely have gotten out of it
(assuming I had the height)....

There has never been any time during my flying career
that I haven't been paying attention to my flying.

...the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes....

The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't matter.


Wow John,

Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.

It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.

Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.


Jack
(still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

As you point out, I'm a believer in positive thinking. But I temper
this faith by seeking out knowledge regarding potentially dangerous
airborne situations, taking away a lesson from each flight, and
respecting how easily flying can kill those who don't think. I try to
fly relaxed but alert, and I don't push any envelopes nor do I take
chances.

I submit that a positive attitude is safer than cowering in the
cockpit, shaking and hyperventilating, and fearing the plane will
betray me at any second. The reply that you quoted from me was written
to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?

-John

Jack wrote:
Wow John,

Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.

It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.

Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.


Jack
(still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

jcarlyle wrote:

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

Yours, perhaps. You missed mine. I'll be happy to get a mere thousand in
Gliders.


The reply that you quoted from me was written
to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

He could be right. I've never instructed in Gliders: perhaps he has. I
believe in spin training, but there are respected opinions on both sides
of the issue. People will kill themselves in any aspect of the game --
usually from the same basic cause of not being well prepared for
whatever it is they encounter. When they move up to a readily spinnable
single-seater, and I understand there are some, it might be a huge
advantage to have spun something, even one of the more docile
two-seaters, earlier in their experience.

You report that confidence in your ability to deal with spins and other
aircraft control issues was cemented when you finally did spins -- if I
have read you correctly. That sounds like a recommendation for a
spinnable trainer to me. You were just a little delayed in getting that
phase of your training.


I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?

"Nospam" didn't say anything about being afraid, and I doubt he
advocates it. I can't remember being afraid in an aircraft, though there
have been several instances of "heightened alertness" along the way. I
have noted through the years that some people are afraid of being afraid.

You say there never has been a time when you were not paying attention
to your flying, but eventually there will be -- unless you quit
prematurely, or simply don't take on many challenges. I hope it won't
surprise you too much.


Jack

Good one, Jack! I'm sorry I missed the party; with your sense of humor
I'm sure it would have been fun time.

But I feel I'm missing something in your advice. You've said twice now
(I'm paraphrasing) to be prepared, that something unexpected will
happen someplace, sometime that I'll have to deal with, and you hope
I'll be ready. With all due respect to your 10,000 hours (and how many
multiples, one wonders), I don't see how that is actionable advice.

Let me turn the tables a bit. Things have changed for you, now that
you're gliding. No simulators to test your skills safely, no full-time
mechanics to care for the aircraft. You've certainly got the flight
experience, but I submit that much of it isn't transferable to what
you're doing now (deliberately flying near stall in turbulent
conditions, perhaps within dozens of feet of a ridge, with no "go"
handle to get you out of trouble).

What are you doing in your new flying career to prepare for the
unexpected, Jack? I'm not joshing you, I really want to know how you're
implementing the advice you gave me.

-John


Jack wrote:
jcarlyle wrote:

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

Yours, perhaps. You missed mine. I'll be happy to get a mere thousand in
Gliders.

Jack

I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?


I think you misunderstood me, I love spinning.. it's not about being
afraid, it is about being aware and prepared, if someone learned how to
fly in a glider that did not spin, then gets into a glider that does
and continues to fly it like the trainer that did not spin, they will
have problems...