FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US

Reminds me of a flight I was on last year. I tuned to Camarillo tower
to listen in even though I was a couple thousand feet above his
airspace and I heard this exchange:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123...........and I'm departing to
the right.

I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he
didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing,
presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? And what if he's
already a pilot? Scary stuff.

Also, I was once given a P&H instruction at Santa Monica with a Hawker
jet on short final. I was in a Piper Cherokee with no rear window, and
I declined. Controller had me switch over to ground for a moment to
tell me about how they like to sequence 'em tight on busy days, but
it's my butt on the line, not his. It probably would have been fine 99
times out of 100 with the spacing, but what about that 1 time?

P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an
immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions.
Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the
time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera,
Action the moment the tower tells you to.

IMHO.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL
http://hallert.net/cozy/

"Ben Hallert" wrote:
I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he
didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing,
presumably he's learned all this stuff... right?

In theory, yes. In practice, if a student is doing his primary training at
an uncontrolled field, it's likely he's not got much experience with
towers. While "position and hold" is probably something he's been taught,
there's a big difference between being taught something and knowing it.

Can you honestly say you've never been confused by something ATC said to
you?

It sounds like the poor pilot did the right thing -- ATC said something he
didn't understand, so he asked for clarification and didn't move until he
got it sorted out.

If I'm already on the runway with a P&H clearance, I already did the LCA.
BT

P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an
immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions.
Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the
time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera,
Action the moment the tower tells you to.

IMHO.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL
http://hallert.net/cozy/

"Ben Hallert" wrote in message
ps.com...

Reminds me of a flight I was on last year. I tuned to Camarillo tower
to listen in even though I was a couple thousand feet above his
airspace and I heard this exchange:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123...........and I'm departing to
the right.

I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he
didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing,
presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? And what if he's
already a pilot? Scary stuff.


A few years ago the phraseology was changed from "taxi into position and
hold" to just "position and hold". A bad idea, in my opinion. Some pilots
apparently confuse "position and hold" with "hold your position".



Also, I was once given a P&H instruction at Santa Monica with a Hawker
jet on short final. I was in a Piper Cherokee with no rear window, and
I declined. Controller had me switch over to ground for a moment to
tell me about how they like to sequence 'em tight on busy days, but
it's my butt on the line, not his. It probably would have been fine 99
times out of 100 with the spacing, but what about that 1 time?


If you're uncomfortable using procedures commonly used at controlled fields
it would be best for everyone if you avoided controlled fields.



P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an
immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions.
Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the
time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera,
Action the moment the tower tells you to.


If you haven't done those things already you're not ready for takeoff.

Steven P. McNicoll writes:
If you're uncomfortable using procedures commonly used at controlled fields
it would be best for everyone if you avoided controlled fields.

I'm very comfortable using procedures at controlled fields. In fact, I
did all of my primary instruction at Santa Monica. As pilot in
command, I made a decision to decline a position and hold because I
felt the landing traffic on final was too close.

You aren't suggesting that I defer my judgement as pilot to the
controller when I feel there's a safety issue, are you?

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL