filing IFR plan for VFR flight conditions

If you dont take their "recommended vector" they can terminate your
radar services arbitrarily under the "workload" clause.

If you want flight following, you have to play ball.

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

wrote in message
...

I've recently had a discussion with my A&P/IA about this. He
routinely hops in his turbo arrow, and flies from Virginia to Key
West VFR at 11000' without talking to a soul.



A violation of FAR 91.159(a).



Right over top of Class-C and Class-B. What he says, (and I tend
to agree with him anymore), is if you talk to them, even if you're clear
of their airspace, they'll try to route you over hell and gone.



Possibly an error on ATC's part over the top of Class C airspace, definitely
an error on their part over Class B airspace.



Having flown under and over Chicago's airspace, a number of
times, you find this more often than not. Rather than encouraging
the additional safety of flight following, this really discourages
working with the approach controllers. Same thing talking with
Milwaukee approach every time I've gone up there. I'm coming
lakeshore from the south, planning to go just outside of their Class-C
on my way in to Capitol, also just outside their Class-C. If I talk
to them, they'll route me 10 miles to the west, every time... even
without traffic conflict.



Class C services are provided to participating VFR traffic in the outer area
just as they are in the Class C proper, but without conflicting IFR traffic
they have no basis upon which to move you.

"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...

If you dont take their "recommended vector" they can terminate your
radar services arbitrarily under the "workload" clause.


How so? Declining a suggested vector doesn't affect their workload.



If you want flight following, you have to play ball.


When the controller does things contrary to established procedures it's
clear he's not a sharp troop. How useful is flight following from such
controllers?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...

If you dont take their "recommended vector" they can terminate your
radar services arbitrarily under the "workload" clause.



How so? Declining a suggested vector doesn't affect their workload.



If you want flight following, you have to play ball.



When the controller does things contrary to established procedures it's
clear he's not a sharp troop. How useful is flight following from such
controllers?


It does (affect workload)if they have to vector 5 other people because
of you. I wouldnt be obligated to do any favors to someone who doesnt
offer any in return.

Dave.

"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...

It does (affect workload)if they have to vector 5 other people because
of you.


Why would they have to vector 5 other people because of me?



I wouldnt be obligated to do any favors to someone who doesnt
offer any in return.


You'll have to explain the meaning of that.

Steve...

Do you by any chance fly VFR, in a busy terminal airspace, perhaps
during the "push"? You sure seem to have a hard time grasping some
pretty obvious and simple concepts that I am discussing... or you just
seem determined to ask "why" an awful lot. I'm sorry I am not being
detailed enough to suit your needs.

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...


It does (affect workload)if they have to vector 5 other people because
of you.



Why would they have to vector 5 other people because of me?



I wouldnt be obligated to do any favors to someone who doesnt
offer any in return.



You'll have to explain the meaning of that.

"Dave S" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Steve...

Do you by any chance fly VFR, in a busy terminal airspace, perhaps
during the "push"? You sure seem to have a hard time grasping some
pretty obvious and simple concepts that I am discussing... or you just
seem determined to ask "why" an awful lot. I'm sorry I am not being
detailed enough to suit your needs.


Dave, I think it's you that's having difficulty grasping the concept. A
previous poster wrote about flying "right over top of Class-C and Class-B"
airspace. He added, "if you talk to them, even if you're clear of their
airspace, they'll try to route you over hell and gone." In my response I
stated that was possibly an error on ATC's part over the top of Class C
airspace and definitely an error on their part over Class B airspace. It's
possibly an error over Class C airspace because Class C services are
provided to participating aircraft in the outer area just as they are in the
Class C airspace proper. Outside of Class B or Class C airspace, or the
outer area associated with Class C airspace, or a TRSA, ATC should not
assign headings, routes altitudes, etc, to VFR aircraft. To do so violates
FAA Order 7110.65, the document which prescribes air traffic control
procedures and phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control
services. If you've been following the thread, you know we've been
discussing operations outside of these types of airspace. So what is this
"busy terminal airspace" you're referring to?

Read my other posts... some of which you've responded to.

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Steve...

Do you by any chance fly VFR, in a busy terminal airspace, perhaps
during the "push"? You sure seem to have a hard time grasping some
pretty obvious and simple concepts that I am discussing... or you just
seem determined to ask "why" an awful lot. I'm sorry I am not being
detailed enough to suit your needs.



Dave, I think it's you that's having difficulty grasping the concept. A
previous poster wrote about flying "right over top of Class-C and Class-B"
airspace. He added, "if you talk to them, even if you're clear of their
airspace, they'll try to route you over hell and gone." In my response I
stated that was possibly an error on ATC's part over the top of Class C
airspace and definitely an error on their part over Class B airspace. It's
possibly an error over Class C airspace because Class C services are
provided to participating aircraft in the outer area just as they are in the
Class C airspace proper. Outside of Class B or Class C airspace, or the
outer area associated with Class C airspace, or a TRSA, ATC should not
assign headings, routes altitudes, etc, to VFR aircraft. To do so violates
FAA Order 7110.65, the document which prescribes air traffic control
procedures and phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control
services. If you've been following the thread, you know we've been
discussing operations outside of these types of airspace. So what is this
"busy terminal airspace" you're referring to?

Dave S wrote:
: If you dont take their "recommended vector" they can terminate your
: radar services arbitrarily under the "workload" clause.

: If you want flight following, you have to play ball.

Right... my original point refers to controllers who categorically vector
any VFR traffic that chooses to talk to them from their current position outside the
controlled airspace to a position even more outside of the controlled airspace. I
would think controllers would prefer anyone within the area to be in communication
with them and not penalize those VFR folk who chose to play by vectoring them around.
It's safer for everyone to be in communication and close to somebody else than to be
just as close without communication.

-Cory


--
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* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
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