HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the 2-33
to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations around
the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and spending 15-20
hours with an instructor in one of these will make the transition both
easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous learning technique. On
our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo Discii, Great Western a
DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I think the west coast DG
dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give you
a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single seat
glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will, IMHO,
make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the instructor
inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone. Also, don't
rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as you spring for
a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they provide a lot
for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler at Caracole
does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's worth every
penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar service. I'm sure
there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy done by an A&P is
that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of needed (or just wanted)
repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Ray,
the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
much higher then a 304.
Beside not every one needs that level of training.
Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
something real quick.
Udo

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as
you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they
provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler
at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's
worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar
service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy
done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of
needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.

In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
DJ would accomplish much the same.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
.. .
Ray,
the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
much higher then a 304.
Beside not every one needs that level of training.
Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
something real quick.
Udo

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long
as you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P,
they provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty
Eiler at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist
that's worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a
similar service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having
the prebuy done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the
cost of needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.

In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
DJ would accomplish much the same.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
-- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
my flying.

I transitioned to an LS-3 after 30 Blanik hours (no other flying
experience), and in preparation took some dual time in the only "high
performance" glider that was available (a 2-place Lark). It retrospect,
it would have been good to have some time in a glider like a Duo Discus.
So I think Ray is on the right track here.

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
-- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
my flying.

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis
500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a
great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with my
flying.

That is an interesting observation.
I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I would
be interested in pushing my average up.
Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for me. On
the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter then I would
like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding too.
Udo

Just an aside re Parowan and KS. At the end of one day, Karl came over
as we were tying down our PW-6 and commented that in two thermals when
we were together, he could never climb his Duo up to us -- surprise.

Udo Rumpf wrote:

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe
it was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience.
It is like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the
Indianapolis 500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive
one of those cars. For me, at least, I would need to be the one
flying, with someone in the back seat telling me what I was doing
wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a great experience -- it was, but
just not one that would help me with my flying.


That is an interesting observation.
I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I
would be interested in pushing my average up.
Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for
me. On the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter
then I would like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding
too.
Udo


--
Charles Yeates
ZS Jezow Agent - PW-6/PW-5

CMYeates & Associates
105 Dunbrack St, Apt 110
Halifax, NS, Canada, B3M 3G7
tel/fax 902.443.0094

Web site http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Greg:

I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
more than I would with my very sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news:4aBWf.972$I%6.187@fed1read12...
Raphael Warshaw wrote:

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
Greg:

I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
more than I would with my very sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).

Ray Warshaw
1LK

It probably depends a lot on the person. I have always had trouble
learning anything without actually doing it myself.

"Raphael Warshaw" wrote in message
...
Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

Ray,

Udo was referring to the original poster, FC Norton, who started this
thread.

In Mr. Norton's post he stated:
"I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride."

Did you not read the post, or are you making an attempt at humor due to the
"Mooney/Money" typographical error?

Respectfully,
Wayne