Where is the IAF for LOC BC RWY 03R at LUK?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"PaulH" wrote in message
om...

I'm new at IFR so this may be off base, but... the chart says radar is
required, so I'm guessing you can only use this with radar vectors.
There isn't even a proc turn shown.



The chart doesn't say "RADAR REQUIRED", it says "DME or RADAR and ADF
REQUIRED". You can fly it without radar assistance as long as you have DME
and ADF (or suitable GPS) and navigate via Falmouth VOR/DME.



I never was very good in grammar, but what is the parsing order in the
above. Is it "DME or (RADAR and ADF)" or "(DME or RADAR) and ADF?" I'm
assuming English has an order of evaluation as does mathematics, I'm
just not familiar with what it is. I would have read this as requiring
either DME or requiring RADAR and ADF, but that isn't how you
interpreted it and I frankly don't know which is correct from a language
perspective.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"PaulH" wrote in message
om...

I'm new at IFR so this may be off base, but... the chart says radar is
required, so I'm guessing you can only use this with radar vectors.
There isn't even a proc turn shown.



The chart doesn't say "RADAR REQUIRED", it says "DME or RADAR and ADF
REQUIRED". You can fly it without radar assistance as long as you have DME
and ADF (or suitable GPS) and navigate via Falmouth VOR/DME.



I never was very good in grammar, but what is the parsing order in the
above. Is it "DME or (RADAR and ADF)" or "(DME or RADAR) and ADF?" I'm
assuming English has an order of evaluation as does mathematics, I'm
just not familiar with what it is. I would have read this as requiring
either DME or requiring RADAR and ADF, but that isn't how you
interpreted it and I frankly don't know which is correct from a language
perspective.

Matt

DME or Radar...one of the other
ADF no matter which of the "ors" above you have.

Look at the context. There are radar fixes where there are DME fixes.

So, if you don't have DME, how do you identify the LOC FAF? It isn't
identified as a RADAR fix or an Intersection, just a DME fix.
Seems like the title should be LOC/DME BC RWY 3R, since, as published,
DME is required to fly the final approach.

JPH

wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:


Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


"PaulH" wrote in message
e.com...


I'm new at IFR so this may be off base, but... the chart says radar is
required, so I'm guessing you can only use this with radar vectors.
There isn't even a proc turn shown.



The chart doesn't say "RADAR REQUIRED", it says "DME or RADAR and ADF
REQUIRED". You can fly it without radar assistance as long as you have DME
and ADF (or suitable GPS) and navigate via Falmouth VOR/DME.



I never was very good in grammar, but what is the parsing order in the
above. Is it "DME or (RADAR and ADF)" or "(DME or RADAR) and ADF?" I'm
assuming English has an order of evaluation as does mathematics, I'm
just not familiar with what it is. I would have read this as requiring
either DME or requiring RADAR and ADF, but that isn't how you
interpreted it and I frankly don't know which is correct from a language
perspective.

Matt


DME or Radar...one of the other
ADF no matter which of the "ors" above you have.

Look at the context. There are radar fixes where there are DME fixes.

"J Haggerty" wrote in message
news:Qm%yc.16248$1L4.10836@okepread02...

So, if you don't have DME, how do you identify the LOC FAF? It isn't
identified as a RADAR fix or an Intersection, just a DME fix.
Seems like the title should be LOC/DME BC RWY 3R, since, as published,
DME is required to fly the final approach.


You identify it by radar. Approach can call the FAF as long as it's
depicted on the scope, it doesn't have to be designated on the plate.

J Haggerty wrote:

So, if you don't have DME, how do you identify the LOC FAF? It isn't
identified as a RADAR fix or an Intersection, just a DME fix.
Seems like the title should be LOC/DME BC RWY 3R, since, as published,
DME is required to fly the final approach.


They could have done a better job by including "RADAR" at the FAF, as well. But,
the procedure wouldn't say "RADAR or DME," nor woult the intermediate fix have
"RADAR" unless ATC is set up to call the FAF as well.

As an aside, you won't see new LOC procedures with DME in the title any longer,
even when it is mandatory. Instead, a note will say "DME required," with no
conditions. This is a database limitation issue; thus the naming convention was
changed to fix avionics issues, not make it any easier for you to understand.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

I never was very good in grammar, but what is the parsing order in the
above. Is it "DME or (RADAR and ADF)" or "(DME or RADAR)
and ADF?" I'm assuming English has an order of evaluation as does
mathematics, I'm just not familiar with what it is.


I don't know anything about orders of evaluation for English. RADAR or DME
is required, you must also have ADF. That's clear from a brief examination
of the procedure.



I would have read this as requiring
either DME or requiring RADAR and ADF, but that isn't how you
interpreted it and I frankly don't know which is correct from a language
perspective.


I conclude the same as you. Remember, these notes are not regulatory,
they're just reminders.