ILS question

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
If you are just receiving vectors on a random route, then you cannot
descend until you are on a "hard, black line". However, in the situation
being discussed, if it is not the specific "radar vectors to final" or a
radar approach, then the AIM states that: "For this purpose, the procedure
turn of a published IAP shall *NOT* be considered a segment of that IAP
until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon
which the procedure turn is predicated."

There's still something that's confusing me. Immediately prior to the
sentence you quote (5-4-7b), the AIM says "for aircraft operating on
unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when
conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the
aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign
an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a
published route or instrument approach procedure".

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach? If so, what does it
mean in that situation to say "except when conducting a radar approach"? And
doesn't the requirement for an altitude-until-established (if you're not
already on a published segment) apply during a radar approach? So why the
"exception"?

The example that the AIM then cites exacerbates the confusion. The clearance
is "maintain 2000 until established on the localizer", but the subsequent
note suggests that the interim altitude is to be maintained until
established on a published segment, not just on the localizer.

--Gary

This is addressed in procedures written after an airline crash in
Virginia of a flight inbound to Dulles in the 1970's (?)
The cause leading up to the crash and procedures developed afterward
are a case study in when you can descend.
It has been studied and written up in many aviation periodicals in the
last 30 years.

EDR wrote:

This is addressed in procedures written after an airline crash in
Virginia of a flight inbound to Dulles in the 1970's (?)

TWA 514, December 1, 1974.


The cause leading up to the crash and procedures developed afterward
are a case study in when you can descend.
It has been studied and written up in many aviation periodicals in the
last 30 years.

Gary Drescher wrote:

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
If you are just receiving vectors on a random route, then you cannot
descend until you are on a "hard, black line". However, in the situation
being discussed, if it is not the specific "radar vectors to final" or a
radar approach, then the AIM states that: "For this purpose, the procedure
turn of a published IAP shall *NOT* be considered a segment of that IAP
until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon
which the procedure turn is predicated."

There's still something that's confusing me. Immediately prior to the
sentence you quote (5-4-7b), the AIM says "for aircraft operating on
unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when
conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the
aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign
an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a
published route or instrument approach procedure".

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach? If so, what does it
mean in that situation to say "except when conducting a radar approach"? And
doesn't the requirement for an altitude-until-established (if you're not
already on a published segment) apply during a radar approach? So why the
"exception"?

A radar approach is an ASR or PAR approach. A vector onto a non-radar approach
(all other approaches) is a vector that replaces a non-radar intitial approach
segment. Or, if you're vectored onto a segment prior to the final approach
course, it's a vector to replace an airway or a feeder route.



The example that the AIM then cites exacerbates the confusion. The clearance
is "maintain 2000 until established on the localizer", but the subsequent
note suggests that the interim altitude is to be maintained until
established on a published segment, not just on the localizer.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:AYeAc.106416$3x.41993@attbi_s54...

There's still something that's confusing me. Immediately prior to the
sentence you quote (5-4-7b), the AIM says "for aircraft operating on
unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when
conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after
the
aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or
assign
an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of
a
published route or instrument approach procedure".

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach? If so, what does it
mean in that situation to say "except when conducting a radar approach"?

Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR. It's in the AIM but don't have the reference.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:AYeAc.106416$3x.41993@attbi_s54...


Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR. It's in the AIM but don't have the reference.

It's also a fundamental part of being qualified to hold an instrument rating.



Maule Driver wrote:

wrote in message ...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:AYeAc.106416$3x.41993@attbi_s54...


Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR. It's in the AIM but don't have the reference.

It's also a fundamental part of being qualified to hold an instrument
rating.

Yup, well, I'm certainly aware of ASR and PAR approaches, though I'd
momentarily forgotten that they're what the term 'radar approach' refers to,
in contrast with 'radar vectors to an approach'. Now that my embarrassing
lapse is remedied, I hope my qualifications are restored.

Meanwhile, I'm still not certain I understand the example in AIM 5-4-7b.
When the specified clearance is to "maintain 2000 until established on the
localizer" (after being vectored to and cleared for the ILS approach), does
the clearance actually mean not just until established on the localizer, but
also "until established on a published segment" of the approach? That
interpretation is suggested by the preceding caveats and the subsequent note
in 5-4-7b. But if that's right, the phrasing of the clearance is confusing.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:AYeAc.106416$3x.41993@attbi_s54...


Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR. It's in the AIM but don't have the reference.

It's also a fundamental part of being qualified to hold an instrument
rating.

Yup, well, I'm certainly aware of ASR and PAR approaches, though I'd
momentarily forgotten that they're what the term 'radar approach' refers to,
in contrast with 'radar vectors to an approach'. Now that my embarrassing
lapse is remedied, I hope my qualifications are restored.

It has been restored. ;-)



Meanwhile, I'm still not certain I understand the example in AIM 5-4-7b.
When the specified clearance is to "maintain 2000 until established on the
localizer" (after being vectored to and cleared for the ILS approach), does
the clearance actually mean not just until established on the localizer, but
also "until established on a published segment" of the approach? That
interpretation is suggested by the preceding caveats and the subsequent note
in 5-4-7b. But if that's right, the phrasing of the clearance is confusing.


You got it right. "Established" is suppose to be used by ATC only in
conjunction with a published segment. If they vector you onto an unpublished
extension of the LOC, they are then obligated to either withhold approach
clearance until you reach a published segment, or issue the approach clearance
with a crossing restriction for a fix where you reach the published segment.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR.

D'oh. Ok.

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:08:16 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote:

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach?

No it does not.

This is all in the AIM. Look under "Radar Approaches" (5-4-10).




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)