Water in our oil, or just alot of hot air?

On 23 Apr 2006 02:18:53 -0700, wrote:

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that

Get a good engine block and cylinder head heater. Wrap up the entire
cowl with plenty of good thermal blankets and use an engine heater to
keep the oil dry.

situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I

Again we disagree. If I don't use the engine heater the oil will be
almost milky within the first five hours. Using the heater it's still
clear to around the 20 hour mark. OTOH my engine has no oil filter so
the oil changes come at 25 hours. In 25 hours the oil doesn't go down
enough to hardly see on the dip stick, so it's using less than a pint
in 25 hours and is almost at TBO. BTW it has a wet vacuum pump.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:43:26 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On 23 Apr 2006 02:18:53 -0700, wrote:

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that

Get a good engine block and cylinder head heater. Wrap up the entire
cowl with plenty of good thermal blankets and use an engine heater to
keep the oil dry.

I should add that keeping the heater on all the time comes with some
caveats. One being the whole engine has to get hot and in most
climates where it's necessary to preheat the engine that means
thoroughly wrapping up the front of the airplane from the firewall
forward. The blankets I've cut go half way up the windshield and
behind the cowl flaps.

Some one asked about this and I can't find the post.

I regularly check the engine by pulling the dip stick. If things
aren't hot enough there will be moisture condensing under the top of
the dipstick or oil filler cap.

Everything on the engine gets hot enough that it's uncomfortable to
put your hand on it. You can do so without getting burned, but if you
are not expecting it, you will jerk your hand back away from the
cylinders. Based on that I'd guess the temp is pretty close to 50C or
about 122F (if I did the math right) That's not 180, but it's not
getting combustion products put in at the same time either.

Another caveat is; don't leave the thing set for more than a couple of
weeks. The engine is hot enough the "cling" will quit clinging.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I

Again we disagree. If I don't use the engine heater the oil will be
almost milky within the first five hours. Using the heater it's still
clear to around the 20 hour mark. OTOH my engine has no oil filter so
the oil changes come at 25 hours. In 25 hours the oil doesn't go down
enough to hardly see on the dip stick, so it's using less than a pint
in 25 hours and is almost at TBO. BTW it has a wet vacuum pump.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

I should add that keeping the heater on all the time comes with some
caveats. One being the whole engine has to get hot and in most
climates where it's necessary to preheat the engine that means
thoroughly wrapping up the front of the airplane from the firewall
forward. The blankets I've cut go half way up the windshield and
behind the cowl flaps.

The problem with keeping an engine too warm all the time:
degraded rubber hoses, seals and gaskets. Rubber parts lose their
lighter elements faster when hot and get hard; they shrink, crack and
leak. They'll do it over time too, of course, but heat accelerates it.
The same thing applies to aircraft interiors and radios when subjected
to the heat of the sun.
Nothing lasts forever. We don't want to think about that
sometimes. Your airplane is aging whether it's flying or not, and you
can only slow it as much as practicable. I would be more inclined to
use dessicant plugs (with "Remove Before Flight" flags attached) on the
engine breather, exhaust and intake. Cheaper than heating and easier on
rubber.

Dan

On 28 Apr 2006 07:52:31 -0700, wrote:

I should add that keeping the heater on all the time comes with some
caveats. One being the whole engine has to get hot and in most
climates where it's necessary to preheat the engine that means
thoroughly wrapping up the front of the airplane from the firewall
forward. The blankets I've cut go half way up the windshield and
behind the cowl flaps.

The problem with keeping an engine too warm all the time:

The Key here is the word "too". The Tanis heater doesn't keep the
engine too hot.

degraded rubber hoses, seals and gaskets. Rubber parts lose their
lighter elements faster when hot and get hard; they shrink, crack and
leak. They'll do it over time too, of course, but heat accelerates it.
The same thing applies to aircraft interiors and radios when subjected
to the heat of the sun.

The entire plane including the interior gets a lot hotter out in the
sun than the engine does from the heater.

Nothing lasts forever. We don't want to think about that
sometimes. Your airplane is aging whether it's flying or not, and you
can only slow it as much as practicable. I would be more inclined to
use dessicant plugs (with "Remove Before Flight" flags attached) on the
engine breather, exhaust and intake. Cheaper than heating and easier on
rubber.

On many you can not get to the intake to put in a desiccant plug in a
manner that would do any good. Just stuff a tennis ball in the
exhaust(S). If you forget them it's no problem as they will be gone
before the first cylinder fires. OTOH if they stick for some reason
they'll be gone right after the first cylinder fires, but they may be
more difficult to find.

The place where desiccant plugs do the best is when they are put in
place of spark plugs. OTOH they have to be replaced every two weeks
or so. If the engine is going to set that long, I'd think it'd be
better to make sure the oil is clean, pull the plugs and spray oil
into the cylinders and then insert the plugs or desiccant plugs.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com




Dan