Water in our oil, or just alot of hot air?

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:40:10 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Winters are getting a bit warmer, (5 weeks shorter in the last 50
years according to the State of Michigan DNR) and more humidity. That
means we spend more of the year in the 30 to 50 degree range with high
humidity.


Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the

It's already insulated with insulated doors, but I need to add the air
duct.

I'm glad you mentioned that as the duct ends within two feet of the
garage wall. All I need is to add a shutter/valve to the duct, cut a
hole through the 2 X 10 and install a register. It'd probably be a
lot better if I carried it up the wall and over to the center of the
garage, but being lazy I'll be lucky to get it into the garage. Great
idea though.

garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:47:38 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:40:10 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the

It's already insulated with insulated doors, but I need to add the air
duct.

I'm glad you mentioned that as the duct ends within two feet of the
garage wall. All I need is to add a shutter/valve to the duct, cut a
hole through the 2 X 10 and install a register. It'd probably be a
lot better if I carried it up the wall and over to the center of the
garage, but being lazy I'll be lucky to get it into the garage. Great
idea though.

garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.


roger site the vent so that it ducts on to the floor and try for
coanda effect to take the blast into the centre area.
I'm sure it can work.

Stealth Pilot

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:45:06 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:



You don't really need to fly it once a week. Once a month will do as
long as it gets an hour or so.

an hour or two *after* the engine temperature is at the normal running
temp range will see it right.

white oil? fill it up with avgas and fly out the tank in one
uninterrupted flight and it should be black again.

my aircraft occasionally sits for longer than I want and I find on a
long cross country that by the end of the second day's flying it is
running like a well oiled sewing machine again. flying for shorter
periods never seems to get the sewing machine effect where it runs
noticeably sweeter.

Stealth Pilot

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Roger" wrote)
Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a
note
on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".


Pickled? Fogged?


Montblack

I never personallhy heard of Fogged, but I know that Pickled was a common
term.

Peter

And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said.

Most of it goes out the exhaust. Some of it squeezes past the rings,
since everything is still cool and the gaps are larger, and it
condenses in the crankcase. It does it to a lesser degree once it's
warmed up.

I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.

Only if your idea of winter is around 40 F. Many of us live in
climates that get much colder than that. We have airplanes here that
never see over 150 F on the oil temp in winter, and seldom more than
300 on the CHT.

I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up.

I've taken the rocker covers off a brand-new engine after it's been ground run for five minutes, and they're full of water. If I take them off after it has 200 hours on it, they're rusty.

I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine.

You just haven't seen it, so you don't believe it.

I could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either.

More "show me." Lycoming and Continental and the people who make engine
oils HAVE done the research and published it. Many more, who aren't
trying to sell oil or additives or engines, have done it as well.

Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate.

Water's vapor pressure rises with temperature, if you remember your
physics. Raising the vapor pressure drives it of sooner. It doesn't
have to boil. 180 is a recommendation. Below that, the water might form
in the case faster than it will evaporate, and you'll have increasing
amounts accumulating in the engine.

The research is there. Here are some who have experience in the
area:
http://www.sacskyranch.com/corrosion.htm

http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/JOM-0505-54/$FILE/JOM-0505-54F.pdf?OpenElement

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenan...mendations.htm

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues...italsigns.html

Lots more if you Google it.

Dan

-----------------snip---------------
If you are going to ground run it you want to bring it up to operating
temp. It's the short runs that not only don't evaporate much of
anything they put a lot more *stuff* into the oil as the cold engine
isn't running as efficient as a warm one and the byproducts can
condense inside.

Find a good clean spot on the ramp, let the engine warm up normally.
Then stand on the brakes and wind 'er up for a prolonged run. Of
course then makes the neighbors unhappy.

at least get the temp needle off the peg. If, for any reason I was
unable
to run the engine frequently, I would certainly place dessicant packages
in
the intake(s), exhaust(s), and crankcase breather.

---------------snip-------------------
If you feel the need to get the oil moving in a stored engine, crank
it over with the fuel and mags shut off untill full oil pressure is
acheived, then recharge the battery. Do NOT ground run for short
periods without getting the oil temperature up to dry it out.
Particularly important with top-cam engines, as the cams and tappets
are very prone to condensation induced corrosion failures. And worse
with Synthetic oils than standard petro oils.

The top cam engines are exactly the problem, which is why I really think we
are going around in a circle. And we are not the first to do so, nor will
we be the last.

In my admittedly limited understanding of top cam engines, the lobes and
tappets are essentially "splash lubricated" in that their coating of oil is
primarily by oil thrown from the crankshaft. In the case of Lycoming
engines, I presume that the intake lobes would receive some oil that could
travel from the camshaft bearings; but I am not convinced that the exhaust
lobes would receive any lubrication at cranking speeds.

Admittedly, there are direct spray modifications available for the Lycoming
cam lobes--according to a bonafide Lycoming Bigot in my chapter who has no
intention of ever flying his airplane at night or under IFR. However, I
have no adea whether the modification is certified under 14 CFR part 33. In
the case of Experimental Category and Day VFR only, presuming that the
modification was part of the original construction, the problem is solved:
just turn off the fuel, crank the engine, and recharge the battery. If the
aircraft is certified under 14 CFR part 23, or if IFR or Night VFR is
included, then my reading of AC 23-11A suggests that the engine as currently
installed is expected be certified and airworthy under 14 CFR part 33 and
the propelled as installed is expected to be certified and airworthy under
14 CFR part 35.

If we simply knew on the last day of good flying weather that it was time to
pickle the engine for the off season, the solution would be pretty simple.
However, other posts in the thread have elaborated that this is not
necessarily the case, and in fact the issue of preserving the engine is
likely to come up at the least opportune time. I admit that part of the
foregoing point escaped my attention as well, and I stand corrected.
Engines do breath in and out with changes in both temperature and barometric
pressure, and a ground run in the rain was really not a recommendation.

Peter

Disclaimer: this is not my occupational specialty and I don't recall why I
happened to read AC 23-11A. Also, if your airplane is registered outside
the US, different rules apply. Also, this is entirely redundant as you
already know by reading the thread; however everyone should go back and read
it again.
Alternate Manager of Duplication
The Depeartment of Redundancy Department

("Peter Dohm" wrote)
Pickled? Fogged?

I never personallhy heard of Fogged, but I know that Pickled was a common
term.


Fogging oil for "winterizing" an engine. Spray it in the spark plug holes.

http://www.pennzoil.com/products/mar...gging_oil.html

http://www.seafoamsales.com/deepCreepTech.htm
DEEP CREEP Engine Fogging - scroll to the middle


Montblack

Admittedly, there are direct spray modifications available for the Lycoming
cam lobes--according to a bonafide Lycoming Bigot in my chapter

We're buying three Lyc Factory overhauls this spring (O-320) and the
dealer tells me that Lycoming has come up with a roller tappet and cam
to match. The case is different, to make room for the extra machinery.
It's an option right now, apparently. I imagine they'll try to convert
the fleet. The roller tappet is likely in response to scuffing issues.
We haven't had any problem with scuff for years, since we started using
an oil with the additive Lycoming recommends (Aeroshell 15W50).

Dan

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Peter Dohm" wrote)
Pickled? Fogged?

I never personallhy heard of Fogged, but I know that Pickled was a
common
term.


Fogging oil for "winterizing" an engine. Spray it in the spark plug holes.

http://www.pennzoil.com/products/mar...gging_oil.html

http://www.seafoamsales.com/deepCreepTech.htm
DEEP CREEP Engine Fogging - scroll to the middle


Montblack


Hmmm. That could work, especially if you can get it to the cam lobes as
well.

Peter

Admittedly, there are direct spray modifications available for the
Lycoming
cam lobes--according to a bonafide Lycoming Bigot in my chapter

We're buying three Lyc Factory overhauls this spring (O-320) and the
dealer tells me that Lycoming has come up with a roller tappet and cam
to match. The case is different, to make room for the extra machinery.
It's an option right now, apparently. I imagine they'll try to convert
the fleet. The roller tappet is likely in response to scuffing issues.
We haven't had any problem with scuff for years, since we started using
an oil with the additive Lycoming recommends (Aeroshell 15W50).

Dan

I've thought for some time that roller tappets would be the real solution,
and I am glad to hear that they will be offered for the O-320.

If you're buying three, your equipment probably dosn't have excessive
periods of inactivity. It's also good to hear that the recommended oil
additive has resolved any residual scuffing problems up until now.

Peter