IFR use of handheld GPS

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Faith is a mysterious thing.

I suppose this means that this has come up before and you have a good
counterpoint for it? Besides throwing out the entire AIM, I hope.

wrote in message
oups.com...

I suppose this means that this has come up before and you have a good
counterpoint for it? Besides throwing out the entire AIM, I hope.


Oh, it's come up many times. This is like a religion with some people, a
matter of faith. They insist use of handheld GPS during IFR enroute
operations in US controlled airspace is illegal and/or unsafe but none of
them can identify any regulation that prohibits it or any hazard caused by
such use.

In article t,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
wrote in message
roups.com...

I suppose this means that this has come up before and you have a good
counterpoint for it? Besides throwing out the entire AIM, I hope.


Oh, it's come up many times. This is like a religion with some people, a
matter of faith. They insist use of handheld GPS during IFR enroute
operations in US controlled airspace is illegal and/or unsafe but none of
them can identify any regulation that prohibits it or any hazard caused by
such use.

sigh I guess I don't understand why someone would want to intentionally
operate outside of those guidelines set out in the AIM (barring an emergency
or other detriment to flight safety).

You are correct...there is no "regulation" (i.e. - rule in the FARs) that
state you can not use a hand-held GPS for IFR navigation. However, the
non-regulatory AIM makes it very clear. As I mentioned in a previous post,
there's also nothing in the FARs about requiring you to read back a hold
short instruction....just the AIM.

I'm certainly no legal expert (nor would I ever want to be), so I can't
make a professional interpretation as to the regulatory or legal status
of things like the AIM, Advisory Circulars, etc... However, it seems
reckless and irresponsible to operate outside of those guidelines.

You are also correct in that there is nothing that says that use of
a handheld for IFR operations is unsafe. However, more importantly,
there's nothing to indicate that it *is* safe! The TSO process exists
for a reason: to prove, via a documented and certified process, that
a piece of avionics will do what it is supposed to do, when it is supposed
to do it.

It's more a matter of faith to assume that the hand-held *is* safe and
will do what it's supposed to do than to assume it is illegal and/or unsafe.

-- Dane

Dane Spearing wrote
... The TSO process exists
for a reason: to prove, via a documented and certified process, that
a piece of avionics will do what it is supposed to do, when it is supposed
to do it.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Good one. But you forgot the smiley face. g

In article ,
Jon Woellhaf wrote:
Dane Spearing wrote
... The TSO process exists
for a reason: to prove, via a documented and certified process, that
a piece of avionics will do what it is supposed to do, when it is supposed
to do it.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Good one. But you forgot the smiley face. g

There. Happy now?!?

(Well, that *is* what the TSO process is *supposed* to be for....I never said
that it actually accomplished that goal....)

-- Dane

"Dane Spearing" wrote in message
...

You are correct...there is no "regulation" (i.e. - rule in the FARs) that
state you can not use a hand-held GPS for IFR navigation.

Correct...as the SOLE REFERENCE.

However, the
non-regulatory AIM makes it very clear. As I mentioned in a previous
post,
there's also nothing in the FARs about requiring you to read back a hold
short instruction....just the AIM.

TSO 129 requirement for IFR instruments?

Even seven years old, this article is relevant:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182076-1.html
November 29, 1998

Pelican's Perch #11:
Using a Handheld GPS — IFR!

/--

Never one to let a good idea, or safer method of flying, wither away for
lack of action or misunderstanding, AVweb's John Deakin takes on the subject
of flying IFR with your GPS handheld. "Not legal," you say? "Not so," says
John. Flying IFR with your handheld GPS is not only legal, it's a godsend he
says, and explains just how to get the most out of that handful of
navigation wizardry.

/--

"Dane Spearing" wrote in message
...

sigh I guess I don't understand why someone would want to intentionally
operate outside of those guidelines set out in the AIM (barring an
emergency
or other detriment to flight safety).


Because direct flight is quicker than following the airways and handheld GPS
is cheaper to purchase.



You are correct...there is no "regulation" (i.e. - rule in the FARs) that
state you can not use a hand-held GPS for IFR navigation. However, the
non-regulatory AIM makes it very clear. As I mentioned in a previous
post,
there's also nothing in the FARs about requiring you to read back a hold
short instruction....just the AIM.


Does reading back a hold short instruction need to be in the FARs? ATC is
required to get the readback. If you don't read back the hold short ATC is
going to instruct you to do something other than what you want to do until
you do read it back and there is something in the FARs about adhering to ATC
instructions.



I'm certainly no legal expert (nor would I ever want to be), so I can't
make a professional interpretation as to the regulatory or legal status
of things like the AIM, Advisory Circulars, etc... However, it seems
reckless and irresponsible to operate outside of those guidelines.


What's to interpret? The AIM itself says it's not regulatory and the
Advisory Circular Checklist says that unless incorporated into a regulation
by reference the contents of an advisory circular are not binding on the
public.



You are also correct in that there is nothing that says that use of
a handheld for IFR operations is unsafe. However, more importantly,
there's nothing to indicate that it *is* safe!


The absence of any danger or harm from it's use indicates it is safe.



It's more a matter of faith to assume that the hand-held *is* safe and
will do what it's supposed to do than to assume it is illegal and/or
unsafe.


We don't assume it's safe, we know it's safe because even a complete failure
of a handheld GPS during IFR enroute flight in US controlled airspace
presents no danger.