Vector altitude for ILS below GS intercept altitude?

Here is a common occurance at TPL, Temple, TX which I use
as a way of teaching students how to stay ahead of ATC:

We are VFR doing practice approaches and being vectored
for an ILS to RWY 15. Usually this results in being vectored
to the west side of the airport and told to maintain 3000'. At
about 8 miles out, the final clearance goes something like this:

"Cessna xyxxz, you are 5 miles from the outer marker, turn right
heading 120 to intercept the localizer, maintin 3000 until established,
cleared for the ILS approach to runway 15 Temple."

Normally, by the time the localizer needle comes off the peg,
we have already flown trhough the glideslope and are well above
the glide slope at this point. The MVA in that area (according to
one controller) is 2600', but they routinely keep you at 3000' usless
you ask for lower. The glide slope intercept altitude is 1700'.

I tell my students to expect this, but the first couple of times it happens
to
them they always seem to get behind, don't ask for lower and/or end up
failing to decend soon enough to recover. Makes for a nice game of
catch-up as they try to get back on the glide slope. After a couple of
times, they wise up and either ask for lower before being given the
approach clearance, or they are spring loaded and ready to descend
once the localizer needle gets within 3/4 scale deflection.

Ronnie

"KP" nospam@please wrote in message
...
"M" wrote in message
oups.com...
Is it common for the approach controller to vector for an ILS at an
altitude below the GS intercept altitude on the IAP? Today is the
third time in the last year or so that Victoria terminal vectored me
for the ILS into BLI at 2000 feet, instead of 2100. I'm very familiar
with the area and I did not bother to question them.

The Canadian controllers provide approach service for Bellingham
probably from an agreement between FAA and NavCanada. Maybe the rules
are somewhat different in Canada, or they just don't have the right
information on this approach?

See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0604/00045I16.PDF

As has already been pointed out, FAAO 7110.65 5-9-1b requires US
controllers to vector "For a precision approach, at an altitude not above
the glideslope/glidepath or below the minimum glideslope intercept
altitude specified on the approach procedure chart."

So...

What was your assigned altitude prior to receiving the approach clearance?
Above 2100 or level at 2000?

If above 2100, what was the wording of the actual approach clearance? Any
"at or above" or other wording that would allow you to adjust your descent
to intercept the GS at the "altitude specified on the approach chart"
rather than level at 2000?

It could also be as simple as the MVA in that area is 2000 and the
controllers simply assign the round thousands MVA as a routine. They
either don't know or don't care (given the allowable error in altimeters
and Mode C) that they are supposed to add that extra 100ft for ILS
approaches.

"Ronnie" wrote in message
. com...

Here is a common occurance at TPL, Temple, TX which I use
as a way of teaching students how to stay ahead of ATC:

We are VFR doing practice approaches and being vectored
for an ILS to RWY 15. Usually this results in being vectored
to the west side of the airport and told to maintain 3000'. At
about 8 miles out, the final clearance goes something like this:

"Cessna xyxxz, you are 5 miles from the outer marker, turn right
heading 120 to intercept the localizer, maintin 3000 until established,
cleared for the ILS approach to runway 15 Temple."

Normally, by the time the localizer needle comes off the peg,
we have already flown trhough the glideslope and are well above
the glide slope at this point. The MVA in that area (according to
one controller) is 2600', but they routinely keep you at 3000' usless
you ask for lower. The glide slope intercept altitude is 1700'.

I tell my students to expect this, but the first couple of times it
happens to
them they always seem to get behind, don't ask for lower and/or end up
failing to decend soon enough to recover. Makes for a nice game of
catch-up as they try to get back on the glide slope. After a couple of
times, they wise up and either ask for lower before being given the
approach clearance, or they are spring loaded and ready to descend
once the localizer needle gets within 3/4 scale deflection.


Have you ever asked them why they assign altitudes to VFR aircraft?

On 5/19/06 8:00 PM, in article
t, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ronnie" wrote in message
. com...

Here is a common occurance at TPL, Temple, TX which I use
as a way of teaching students how to stay ahead of ATC:

We are VFR doing practice approaches and being vectored
for an ILS to RWY 15. Usually this results in being vectored
to the west side of the airport and told to maintain 3000'. At
about 8 miles out, the final clearance goes something like this:

"Cessna xyxxz, you are 5 miles from the outer marker, turn right
heading 120 to intercept the localizer, maintin 3000 until established,
cleared for the ILS approach to runway 15 Temple."

Normally, by the time the localizer needle comes off the peg,
we have already flown trhough the glideslope and are well above
the glide slope at this point. The MVA in that area (according to
one controller) is 2600', but they routinely keep you at 3000' usless
you ask for lower. The glide slope intercept altitude is 1700'.

I tell my students to expect this, but the first couple of times it
happens to
them they always seem to get behind, don't ask for lower and/or end up
failing to decend soon enough to recover. Makes for a nice game of
catch-up as they try to get back on the glide slope. After a couple of
times, they wise up and either ask for lower before being given the
approach clearance, or they are spring loaded and ready to descend
once the localizer needle gets within 3/4 scale deflection.


Have you ever asked them why they assign altitudes to VFR aircraft?


I assumed that they are in VFR conditions but on an IFR plan.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
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No, I have not asked, but I think it is because of tihs.

This facility is Gray Approach, an army ATC
facility that handles Gray Army Airfield and other military
airfiields associated with Forth Hood. In general, the controlers
treat all traffic, inlcuding VFR trafic, like IFR traffic unless you
continue to remind them that you are VFR. I usually don't bother
because I'm interested in letting my instrument students experience
the IFR handling, even if we are VFR.

Ronnie

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Ronnie" wrote in message
. com...

Here is a common occurance at TPL, Temple, TX which I use
as a way of teaching students how to stay ahead of ATC:

We are VFR doing practice approaches and being vectored
for an ILS to RWY 15. Usually this results in being vectored
to the west side of the airport and told to maintain 3000'. At
about 8 miles out, the final clearance goes something like this:

"Cessna xyxxz, you are 5 miles from the outer marker, turn right
heading 120 to intercept the localizer, maintin 3000 until established,
cleared for the ILS approach to runway 15 Temple."

Normally, by the time the localizer needle comes off the peg,
we have already flown trhough the glideslope and are well above
the glide slope at this point. The MVA in that area (according to
one controller) is 2600', but they routinely keep you at 3000' usless
you ask for lower. The glide slope intercept altitude is 1700'.

I tell my students to expect this, but the first couple of times it
happens to
them they always seem to get behind, don't ask for lower and/or end up
failing to decend soon enough to recover. Makes for a nice game of
catch-up as they try to get back on the glide slope. After a couple of
times, they wise up and either ask for lower before being given the
approach clearance, or they are spring loaded and ready to descend
once the localizer needle gets within 3/4 scale deflection.


Have you ever asked them why they assign altitudes to VFR aircraft?

Probably not relevant at TPL, but are controllers allowed (or
required?) to assign altitiudes to VFR aircraft in Class B?

(I'd always assumed "yes" without giving it much thought.)


I often get vectors for practice BJC ILS29R approaches while VFR.
The vectors take me into DEN Class B. I'm invariably given altitudes
as well as headings, which I appreciate as I'm trying to practice IFR
proceures.

Tim.

On Sat, 20 May 2006 00:00:23 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


Have you ever asked them why they assign altitudes to VFR aircraft?

If you're in the Bravo airspace they WILL assign you an altitude or
expect that you keep the one you are on. I've been assigned "wrong way"
VFR altitudes while in the Bravo airspace to fit in with their plans.
Once you exit the Bravo you are expected to fly proper VFR altitudes for
your direction.

Tim Auckland wrote:
Probably not relevant at TPL, but are controllers allowed (or
required?) to assign altitiudes to VFR aircraft in Class B?

(I'd always assumed "yes" without giving it much thought.)


I often get vectors for practice BJC ILS29R approaches while VFR.
The vectors take me into DEN Class B. I'm invariably given altitudes
as well as headings, which I appreciate as I'm trying to practice IFR
proceures.

Tim.

On Sat, 20 May 2006 00:00:23 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


Have you ever asked them why they assign altitudes to VFR aircraft?

"Robert Chambers" wrote in message
. com...

If you're in the Bravo airspace they WILL assign you an altitude or expect
that you keep the one you are on. I've been assigned "wrong way" VFR
altitudes while in the Bravo airspace to fit in with their plans. Once you
exit the Bravo you are expected to fly proper VFR altitudes for your
direction.


Once you exit Class B airspace ATC is supposed to tell you to resume
altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight.

"Tim Auckland" wrote in message
...

Probably not relevant at TPL, but are controllers allowed (or
required?) to assign altitiudes to VFR aircraft in Class B?

(I'd always assumed "yes" without giving it much thought.)


I often get vectors for practice BJC ILS29R approaches while VFR.
The vectors take me into DEN Class B. I'm invariably given altitudes
as well as headings, which I appreciate as I'm trying to practice IFR
proceures.


ATC can assign altitudes to VFR aircraft wherever separation is provided to
VFR aircraft; Class B airspace, Class C airspace and the associated outer
area, and TRSAs.