Flying through Canadian airspace

Well, we did the flight from Saginaw to Cleveland and back... As
promised I did file VFR and I will never, never, never, pinch me, n e
v e r, do that again... What a ghastly experience... And this is
from a fella who has been flying the ATC system for over 40 years - but
hasn't filed a VFR flight plan within that time frame (that I can
remember)..
Anyway, Out on the ramp I phoned and got the Lansing FSS... Rattled off
the usual flight plan info... Waited for the usual CRAFT response and
then gotcha #1 rose up... (I should have known right then!) She didn't
read back the plan!!!
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Well, OK I can live with that, and I know where I'm going, I hope she
remembered... So we saddled up and turned lose those thumpin 150 HP
engines on Fat Albert... Airborne I coach DL through the mechanics of
contacting the nearest ATC and asking for the flight plan to be
opened... Gotcha #2 grins at us... Saginaw approach says they "don't"
open VFR flight plans... (Note, they didn't say can't, just don't - can
you spell 'controllers union versus the privatized FSS'?)
"You will have to talk to FSS.", click and silence...

Well, OK Martha Jane, I DO know how to talk to FSS... So we dial up FSS
and after a few calls get the nice lady... "Oh, your flight plan is
opened."...
So, back to Mr. Wonderful at Saginaw Approach...
highly condensed
"57 Pop is back with you and the VFR flight plan to Cleveland is
opened."
"OK, I can give you flight followingheh, heh, heh Squawk
'snookered', maintain 3500, blah, blah, blah...".... picture me with
sour expression
So, a few miles later we get told, "Leaving my airspace, radar services
terminated, squawk VFR.. You may be able to contact Flint." click...
silence...
Wearily I call Flint Approach... "Who are you, where are you, how high
are you (by now I wish)... And while he didn't say, why are you
bothering me, the attitude was there... The instant you say VFR flight
plan, the temperature in the voice drops 10 degrees...

The Coupe De Grass came on the return leg North lots of grubby details
condensed After Cleveland Approach pinged me to FSS and they ponged me
back, Cleveland finally, grudgingly, gave me a squawk,then waited until
I just touched Canadian Airspace and with a gloat in the voice says:
drum roll you all know what's coming
"Leaving my airspace, return to VFR, have a nice day.", click!
At that point I became annoyed and bluntly told ATC, "Wait a minute
Jack... I am in international airspace and you don't just dump me."
"Well, you can try contacting Detroit." Knowing full well that I am out
of range for Detroit

So, we spent the next 15+ miles calling Detroit... When I finally
reached them it was the three stooges who-what-why-go away routine all
over...

This morning I called the Great Lakes FSDO and spoke to an OPS
specialist... At first she gave me the party line... "tsk, tsk, I
don't know how that could happen, after all a VFR flight plan and
flight following are different programs."
After a bit she warmed up and finally told me, "Well Lockheed Martin
took over FSS and everything is changing and we don't know what ATC is
doing or why."

So, there you have it folks... File VFR and you become a scab walking
into the middle of a sit down strike... Beats me... I have been
banging around airports for over 60 years and flying the ATC system for
over 40 years, and I don't have a clue what to do...

denny

Denny wrote:
Well, we did the flight from Saginaw to Cleveland and back... As
promised I did file VFR and I will never, never, never, pinch me, n e
v e r, do that again... What a ghastly experience... And this is
from a fella who has been flying the ATC system for over 40 years - but
hasn't filed a VFR flight plan within that time frame (that I can
remember)..

snip

Thanks, Denny amusing story, and I feel your pain. I too seldom fly VFR, and
almost never file/activate a VFR flight plan. When I do, I am usually reminded
of why I don't do it more often.

I think your expectations are too high. ATC neither knows nor cares whether you
have filed a VFR flight plan. VFR flight plans never leave the domain of FSS.
They just sit there and wait for you to forget to close/cancel them, then SAR is
launched. That's really all they're good for.

Anyway, thanks again for a good read.

Dave

Denny wrote

So, there you have it folks... File VFR and you become a scab walking
into the middle of a sit down strike... Beats me... I have been
banging around airports for over 60 years and flying the ATC system for
over 40 years, and I don't have a clue what to do...

NOPE! Denny, you just don't understand what a VFR flight plan is for,
nor the common method for filing and opening one. They are filed
direct with a FSS over the telephone and opened by calling a FSS, either
direct or via the nearest VOR station. ATC doesn't get involved at all.
Yes, there are other ways of doing this, but why not do it the in the
expected manner.

Flight following (RADAR advisories) is an ATC function only and does not
depend on having a VFR flight plan filed nor opened.

Sounds as if you need to spend some time in the AIM.

Bob Moore

I speak AIM fluently...
There is a turf war between the controllers union and the privatized
FSS.. All the AIM manuals in the world will not get ATC to
cooperate..

The solution is simple, file IFR and ATC is under the microscope and
cannot simply drop a flight in international airspace to get even with
Lockheed Martin...

denny

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
I speak AIM fluently...
There is a turf war between the controllers union and the privatized
FSS.. All the AIM manuals in the world will not get ATC to
cooperate..

Except what you are describing is the way VFR flight plans have worked for
at least 10 years before FSS was privatized.

Boy, those ATC guys are amazing if they could have predicted that FSS
would be privatized 10 years before it happened!

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Mentally update my CV, paying special attention to the bits
about how to say "Was Fired For Being A Prat" in a positive light.
-- Eric the Read's bad day

Denny wrote:
I speak AIM fluently...
There is a turf war between the controllers union and the privatized
FSS.. All the AIM manuals in the world will not get ATC to
cooperate..

If you are surprised that you don't get a transponer squawk code when
you file a *VFR* flight plan, I'm afraid that you are not as familiar
with the AIM as you may think. Except for a few certain exceptions
(ADIZ, Weirdness in ROC, etc), there has never been much connection
between a VFR flight plan and air traffic control. The ATC guys do NOT
get your *VFR* flight plan, and this has been the case long before
Lockheed got the AFSS contract.

Traffic Advisories (aka "Flight Following") is merely a service that ATC
may provide upon request to VFR aircraft, whether you have a flight plan
or not. They may hand you off to other facilities if they can, but keep
in mind the VFR aircraft may be flying too low for a hand off in any
given area.

I believe if you file a Defense VFR (or DVFR) flight plan than ATC will
get the flight plan. Not sure if this would work for the Washington
ADIZ, but apparently they want all flight plans filed there directly
with Leesburg AFSS anyway.

Being a stubborn cuss I decided to test the system again as I had to
make two more round trips from Michigan through Canada and across Lake
Erie over the holiday weekend... This series of flights I simply
waited until I was about ten miles from Canadian airspace and called
Center and advised I wanted flight following through Canadian Airspace
and across the lake... He promptly assigned a squawk and that was
that... The first round trip I filed a VFR flight plan but did not
activate it... The second round I didn't even bother with that...



denny

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Most of this story seems to indicate that you expect a VFR flight plan to
work exactly the same as an IFR flight plan. It never has, and post 9/11
it's been even worse for cross border operations.

Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate
functions. ROC Approach always insisted that you have a flight plan on
file before they'd give you flight following, and when I'd mention that
here people accused me of lying or being mistaken. Without the VFR flight
plan, they'd refuse to hand you off but turn you lose and maybe give you a
frequency to contact for the next facility. Even with the flight plan,
you'd sometimes get turned loose. When NavCanada was just taking over in
Canada, Toronto would refuse to take VFR hand-offs from Buffalo or
Rochester, and you'd either have to dive beneath their airspace or go
around.

When I went to places in Canada outside of Toronto, it was nice because
Canadian towers open and close VFR flight plans. But I never quite got
the hang of getting flight following from Ottawa - they'd always just turn
me lose and then I'd try to raise Wheeler Sack as I got closer to the
border. I've been told that the secret is to file a "Controlled VFR"
flight plan, but I've never tried it because I got my IFR rating before I
got a chance.

Post 9/11, you still have to be on a flight plan of some sort to cross the
border, and now you have to be talking to ATC as well. So I just find it
a ton easier to file IFR rather than deal with all "will he hand me off,
or won't he, only his bartender knows for sure" crap.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - spaf (1992)

On Thu, 25 May 2006 13:51:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Most of this story seems to indicate that you expect a VFR flight plan to
work exactly the same as an IFR flight plan. It never has, and post 9/11
it's been even worse for cross border operations.

Oh, but they used to and not all that long ago, at least in my
experience. Now maybe it was just the areas in which I've been flying.

I'd file VFR say from 3BS to Muncie. I'd contact MBS approach,
sometimes they'd activate the flight plane for me and some times I'd
have to call FSS. On landing I'd tell the tower I'd like to close the
flight plan. Some times they would and some times they'd tell me to
call FSS. I think it just depended on how busy they were. They'd
hand me off to the next sector (Lansing) and so on. It was not
uncommon to end up talking to center as well. The handoffs were
exactly like the ones I receive IFR. The only difference was I only
needed to notify them when changing altitude and direction instead of
having them tell me when to do so.. However I usually put it in the
form of "Eight Thirty Three Romeo needs to start down for Muncie, or
would like to turn heading such and such. More often than not I'd
hear the word "approved".

No, there were no clearances and not as many instructions, nor did I
have to except a bunch of instructions at the outer marker. :-))
In particular I didn't have to expect odd routing around busy
airspace. But until recently I found very little difference in
talking to ATC whether IFR or VFR.

Actually I did receive directions one time. I was talking to Ft Wayne
app coming from the north and headed for Muncie. The weather was
crappy and I was no more than a couple thousand AGL. I was also
headed directly toward the center of the airport. They finally cam on
when I could see the airport ahead and said, "We really need to have
you turn heading 090 for traffic avoidance. I replied I'd be glad to
and would they please let me know when I could turn back to 180. Just
a minute of two later they came back on with " Eight Thirty Three
Romeo, Turn to heading 180 approved." It may not have been standard,
but it worked..

Now if VFR it's often difficult to squeeze in edgewise to receive an
acknowledgement and I don't get handed off to any one. However I find
if I put myself at altitudes through busy airspace but outside their
actual air space I get noticed and they usually get helpful. Just put
your self about a 1000 feet above the top of a control zone or near a
climb corridor that is not specifically in their airspace. Traveling
near 200 MPH and close enough to get noticed seems to work. OTOH with
a could deck that keeps me low it's a whole different world.

I give them my altitude and heading which will put me a thousand feet
above the class D or C and I may hear "stay out of the control zone"
to which I reply "I'll be passing directly over the airport 1000 feet
above the control zone. That usually results in a repeat of the "stay
out of the class C", probably with the hope I'll change course.

If they get cranky and tell me that's busy airspace I just reply,
"that's why I asked for flight following".

OTOH I could file IFR, Then they can route me around and way out in to
boonies for traffic avoidance. Been there and done that. On the one
occasion I'd have canceled IFR and just stayed up on top, but we were
headed for OSH and I'd have been too close to air file to get back in
the system.

However I agree with Denny. At least for me VFR is treated quite
differently than it used to be.



Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate

Some times yes and some times no, but not always. Maybe they were just
being nice, but I found different areas to operate differently. Some
times quite differently.

functions. ROC Approach always insisted that you have a flight plan on
file before they'd give you flight following, and when I'd mention that

A number of those flights to MIE were not on flight plans yet I had
flight following all the way complete with hand offs.

here people accused me of lying or being mistaken. Without the VFR flight
plan, they'd refuse to hand you off but turn you lose and maybe give you a
frequency to contact for the next facility. Even with the flight plan,

That does happen, flight plan or no flight plan.
I had to leave the Deb at Muncie for a week and a friend flew the old
Cherokee 180 down. He was actually 2000 feet above me. I was handed
off between approaches and even centers. He was turned loose and had
to call up the next approach.

He started out about 15 minutes ahead of me so I head most of his
conversations and call ups. I'd get handed off and he'd get turned
loose. I have no idea why.

I flew down to Lansing IL recently and it was difficult to find any
approach that would talk to me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

you'd sometimes get turned loose. When NavCanada was just taking over in
Canada, Toronto would refuse to take VFR hand-offs from Buffalo or
Rochester, and you'd either have to dive beneath their airspace or go
around.

When I went to places in Canada outside of Toronto, it was nice because
Canadian towers open and close VFR flight plans. But I never quite got
the hang of getting flight following from Ottawa - they'd always just turn
me lose and then I'd try to raise Wheeler Sack as I got closer to the
border. I've been told that the secret is to file a "Controlled VFR"
flight plan, but I've never tried it because I got my IFR rating before I
got a chance.

Post 9/11, you still have to be on a flight plan of some sort to cross the
border, and now you have to be talking to ATC as well. So I just find it
a ton easier to file IFR rather than deal with all "will he hand me off,
or won't he, only his bartender knows for sure" crap.

Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate
functions.

One semi-interesting observation: This isn't true in the Washington
ADIZ. There, a VFR ADIZ flight plan IS opened by ATC, after first
filing with flight service.

Funny that some things actually work better under the ADIZ.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"