Busted TFR, what to expect?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ynPdg.992508$xm3.784486@attbi_s21...
You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient
time for a preflight inspection.

Well, maybe it's my familiarity with the bird.

No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is still
insufficient.

Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you have
a completely distorted sense of time.

Next time you do a preflight, get someone to actually time you, and do the
preflight in a careful, relaxed, methodical manner. If you are really doing
everything you claim to be doing, there's no way it takes three minutes.

Three minutes is an incredibly short period of time. I'm a fast typist, and
it took at least three minutes to compose this post.

Pete

No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is
still insufficient.

Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you
have a completely distorted sense of time.

That's possible, I suppose. Time spent flying (and preflighting) is NOT
deducted from your lifespan, so it pays to take your time... ;-)

I still say you're suffering from time elongation during preflight. Unless
I find something wrong or that needs adjustment, or lubrication (the yokes,
for example), or cleaning (the windshield -- but we try to do that AFTER
flight), I can't imagine taking 15 minutes on a preflight inspection. Not
on a fixed gear, single engine plane, anyway.

How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
inspection...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:QLXdg.5074$1i1.1849@attbi_s72...
That's possible, I suppose. Time spent flying (and preflighting) is NOT
deducted from your lifespan, so it pays to take your time... ;-)

Preflighting *is* part of flying, as you say. I know for a fact it takes me
15 minutes, but I also know for a fact that it doesn't feel like 15 minutes
because time flies when you're having fun. I enjoy the inspection, and the
minutes just pass by like water.

I still say you're suffering from time elongation during preflight.

I suffer from the same time distortion you do. It doesn't seem like 15
minutes. But I've checked the clock on several occasions. I know how long
it actually takes.

[...]
How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as
a result?

I do a normal run-up. Electric fuel pump is my primer, and so operation is
checked during engine start, like for your airplane. In any case, even on a
172, with much simpler systems than on my own airplane, my preflight is
generally over 10 minutes, and that's an airplane I can't even get into the
engine compartment with.

I don't know what else you might be considering...my pre-takeoff checks are
pretty typical as far as I know, except for the flight control check (only
the ailerons are visible from the cockpit, so I do check the flight controls
during the walkaround). If anything, I would guess my pre-takeoff checks
are fewer than others' for that reason.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" writes:
How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
inspection...)

Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

I know this 'cause I have to make sure I have this done before my
instructor shows up. :-)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

Chris Colohan wrote:
"Jay Honeck" writes:

How long does your pre-takeoff checklist take you? Perhaps we're
commingling different parts of the lists, and counting them differently as a
result? (For example, Bob Noel checks his electric fuel pump during
pre-flight, which adds some time. We check the pump at engine start, so
we're not counting that particular check as part of our pre-flight
inspection...)


Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but
going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and check
the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a Citabria was
so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic inspection of the
structure or some such? :-)


Matt

Matt Whiting writes:

Chris Colohan wrote:
Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but

going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
inspection of the structure or some such? :-)

I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.

My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
Citabrias...)

One other data point -- about half of the time I fly the Citabria I
find a minor problem (not major enough to affect airworthiness, but
worth fixing: screw missing on a wing root fairing, underinflated
tire, slightly low on oil, etc.) This plane is based at a busy club,
and many other pilots fly the plane in between my flying sessions. I
take this as a good sign -- my preflight technique is noticing
problems which other pilots are missing, before they become more major
problems. (Alternative explanations: 1. all of these minor problem
occurred right before I want to go flying; 2. other pilots noticed
these problems but didn't think they were worth writing them down as
squawks.)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

Chris Colohan wrote:

Matt Whiting writes:


Chris Colohan wrote:

Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but

going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
inspection of the structure or some such? :-)


I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.

My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
Citabrias...)

A 10 page preflight checklist is simply ridiculous. All of the
checklists for my Skylane, including the emergency ones that I made up
myself since Cessna didn't provide much of any, were less than 10 pages.


Matt

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ynPdg.992508$xm3.784486@attbi_s21...

You are fooling yourself if you think that three minutes is sufficient
time for a preflight inspection.

Well, maybe it's my familiarity with the bird.


No, it's not. I've owned my airplane for 12 years. Three minutes is still
insufficient.

Frankly, every post you make you add stuff to your description of your
preflight. I have no idea how you manage to do all that stuff in three
minutes. You are either recklessly rushing through everything, or you have
a completely distorted sense of time.

Next time you do a preflight, get someone to actually time you, and do the
preflight in a careful, relaxed, methodical manner. If you are really doing
everything you claim to be doing, there's no way it takes three minutes.

Three minutes is an incredibly short period of time. I'm a fast typist, and
it took at least three minutes to compose this post.

I don't know about that. I counted roughly 120 words in your post. If
that took three minutes, then you are typing at 40 words per minute.
That isn't a fast typist by any means. I type 50+ and consider myself
slow. Wife and daughters type well over 100. That is fast.

I'm with Jay on this one. I could preflight my Skylane in no much more
than three minutes. I'd probably say 5 just to be on the safe side, but
it just doesn't take that long to walk around the airplane and pull, tug
and view the essential items.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
I don't know about that. I counted roughly 120 words in your post. If
that took three minutes, then you are typing at 40 words per minute.

Most of the time spent composing a post isn't the typing. It's the figuring
out what to say, proof-reading, etc. My point about being a fast typist was
just to make sure it's understood that typing isn't the bottleneck in my
case, artificially increasing the time taken to post.

[...]
I'm with Jay on this one. I could preflight my Skylane in no much more
than three minutes. I'd probably say 5 just to be on the safe side, but
it just doesn't take that long to walk around the airplane and pull, tug
and view the essential items.

You aren't doing a sufficient preflight either.

I easily recognize that there are pilots doing three minute preflights.
That doesn't mean those preflights are effective. Try that in one of the
Embry-Riddle-style preflight competitions and you'd be laughed off the ramp.

Pete