Those *dangerous* Korean War relics

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

If your father had stolen my father's car and you inherited it, wouldn't
it
be just for me to recover it from you?

If I am innocent, why would it be just to punish me?

It would not. That's why I didn't suggest it. (For example, I did not
suggest that you be imprisoned for the theft; *that* would be an appropriate
punishment for whoever is guilty of the theft.)

Seeking to return stolen property to its rightful owner is not legally or
morally the same as seeking to punish whoever had received the stolen
property, innocently or not. (Of course, if you knew or had reason to know
that it was stolen, then you're not so innocent at all.)

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

If your father had stolen my father's car and you inherited it,
wouldn't it
be just for me to recover it from you?

If I am innocent, why would it be just to punish me?

It would not. That's why I didn't suggest it. (For example, I did not
suggest that you be imprisoned for the theft; *that* would be an
appropriate punishment for whoever is guilty of the theft.)

Seeking to return stolen property to its rightful owner is not legally
or morally the same as seeking to punish whoever had received the stolen
property, innocently or not. (Of course, if you knew or had reason to
know that it was stolen, then you're not so innocent at all.)

--Gary

Returning stolen property to it's rightful owner is one thing. But
we are talking about you and me today paying blacks of today some
sort of punitive reparations for what happened over a hundred years
ago by people and to people who are long dead.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
Returning stolen property to it's rightful owner is one thing. But
we are talking about you and me today paying blacks of today some
sort of punitive reparations for what happened over a hundred years
ago by people and to people who are long dead.

Who is talking about *punitive* reparations?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
Returning stolen property to it's rightful owner is one thing. But
we are talking about you and me today paying blacks of today some
sort of punitive reparations for what happened over a hundred years
ago by people and to people who are long dead.

Who is talking about *punitive* reparations?

I was, from the very first post I made in this thread. It
now appears our whole argument is based on your misreading
of my post. Or is this one of those arguments where one
side keeps changing the subject of what's being argued
over? The ol' "moving the goalposts" problem. I rather
suspect it is and have no further desire to continue the
discussion.

For your reference, here's the text of the post I made in
response to a comment made by Jim Macklin,

"Jim Macklin" wrote in
news:UEpgg.26071$ZW3.17560@dukeread04:

Snipola
Laws change, society changes, hopefully for the better. We
should remember the past, so we don't continue to make the
same mistakes, but we must get over the anger and personal
feelings about what happened 50, 100, 150, 500, 2000 years
ago.

I'll second that. I'm sick and tired of the descendents of
the slaves demanding recompense (in whatever form) from the
descendents of the slave owners. Were you personally enslaved?
Were you personally a slave owner? I thought not. Remember the
past, yes, but get over it.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

Who is talking about *punitive* reparations?

I was, from the very first post I made in this thread. It
now appears our whole argument is based on your misreading
of my post.

No, it's apparently based on your own misreading of your own post. Nothing
in your original post referred to *punitive* reparations.

More importantly, no significant participant in the national debate (to my
knowledge) has ever advocated *punitive* reparations, so if would make no
sense for you to be "sick and tired" of such "demands". (And by the way,
since no one here had been advocating any sort of reparation until you
brought it up, it was a peculiar complaint for you to issue here in the
first place.)

For your reference, here's the text of your orginal post:

I'll second that. I'm sick and tired of the descendents of
the slaves demanding recompense (in whatever form) from the
descendents of the slave owners. Were you personally enslaved?
Were you personally a slave owner? I thought not. Remember the
past, yes, but get over it.

See? No mention of *punitive* recompense, just "recompense". There is a
clear legal and moral distinction between compensation and "punitive
damages", with entirely different criteria for when each is warranted.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

Who is talking about *punitive* reparations?

I was, from the very first post I made in this thread. It
now appears our whole argument is based on your misreading
of my post.

No, it's apparently based on your own misreading of your own post. Nothing
in your original post referred to *punitive* reparations.

Why the **** else would there be reparations if not to punish?
Specific to this issue, slavery in America pre Civil War, what
tangible property is to be returned? What other reason would
there be (re slavery) for white people alive today to give
*anything* to black people alive today? The only thing taken
away from the blacks was their freedom. That has already been
returned to them. Anything more is punative.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

("Skywise" wrote)
Why the [#%&*] else would there be reparations if not to punish?


There are two regular posters who (sometimes) use the F'enheimer.

Maybe that number is now three?

Enjoyed the 'heck' out of your post, otherwise.


Montblack-not-blue

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:
No, it's apparently based on your own misreading of your own post.
Nothing
in your original post referred to *punitive* reparations.

Why the **** else would there be reparations if not to punish?
Specific to this issue, slavery in America pre Civil War, what
tangible property is to be returned? What other reason would
there be (re slavery) for white people alive today to give
*anything* to black people alive today? The only thing taken
away from the blacks was their freedom. That has already been
returned to them. Anything more is punative.

You're being intentionally obtuse. One thing that was stolen from the slaves
(and thereby from their descendents' inheritance) was the massive value of
the slaves' forced labor; that was, after all, the whole point of slavery.
And advocates of reparations explicitly make that argument.

So even if you had some basis for disagreeing with that argument for making
nonpunitive reparations, it *still* would not vindicate your assertion that
anyone has been arguing that *punitive* reparations would be warranted
against individuals alive today.

The question of reparations is complex, and others in this thread have
mentioned some factors that legitimately detract from the case for
reparations. But your "punitive" misconstrual is not among those factors;
rather, it is just a red herring.

--Gary

Skywise wrote:
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

Who is talking about *punitive* reparations?

I was, from the very first post I made in this thread. It
now appears our whole argument is based on your misreading
of my post.

No, it's apparently based on your own misreading of your own post. Nothing
in your original post referred to *punitive* reparations.

Why the **** else would there be reparations if not to punish?

To compensate.

Specific to this issue, slavery in America pre Civil War, what
tangible property is to be returned? What other reason would
there be (re slavery) for white people alive today to give
*anything* to black people alive today? The only thing taken
away from the blacks was their freedom.

Frederick Douglass had most of his wages taken aeway from him
when he was a slave. His descendants could probably establish
a sound estimate of just how much money that was.

--

FF

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in
:

Returning stolen property to it's rightful owner is one thing. But
we are talking about you and me today paying blacks of today some
sort of punitive reparations for what happened over a hundred years
ago by people and to people who are long dead.


Don't try using rationality on an irrational dupe.