Defense against UAV's

wrote:
Guy Alcala wrote:
"Fred J. McCall" wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" wrote:

snip

: So you think a guy standing in a doorway over iron sights using a
: weapon never intended to fire at anything but the ground is going to
: hit one of these things but a purpose built machine designed to take
: on air targets is going to be unable to?
:
: Yeah, that could happen!
:
:Gven that the flight engineer on an Air America Huey was able to shoot down
:an AN-2 using a hand-held AK-47,

Yes, and someone knocked down a stealth fighter with a handgun.

I'm sure you'll give a cite for that, Fred, but since I know about the Huey kill
of the AN-2, I'll share first:

"It Happened To Me

by Walt Darran as told to M.L. Jones

SOF Contributing Aviation Editor Walt Darran. who flew Navy fighter planes
from 1961-67 and piloted Air America and Continental Air Services cargo
planes from 1967-69, was present in Laos when (for the only time in aviation
history) a helicopter shot down a fixed- wing aircraft - indeed, two of them.

The victims were two Polish-built PZL Mielex Antonov AN-2 biplanes, known
as Colts, of the North Vietnamese Air Force. The victor was an Air America
Huey whose only armament was an AK-47 assault rifle. As Darran tells it:

On 12 January 1968, an Air America Huey was delivering 105mm ammo
from a U.S. TACAN (navigational aids) station perched on a high
pinnacle deep in northern Laos to some artillery positions down below.
I was flying a Continental Air Services Pilatus Porter (a single-engine
turboprop transport capable of short landings and takeoffs) making some
rice drops in the area at the time. I had just headed back for LS36 (a
Royal Laotian Army base) to refuel when the choppcr pilot, Ted Moore,
screamed over the radio that two Colts were strafing and bombing the
artillery positions.
We were the only ones in VHF radio contact with one another at the
time and since I was higher, I transmitted the message to CROWN (an
orbiting C-130 with powerful radio equipment capable of relaying
messages from Laos and Vietnam to U.S. 7th Fleet aircraft carriers) for
fighters, all the while ****ed as hell that I was almost out of fuel.
I was familiar with the Colt. When I was in the Navy, they'd send us
out on "Dawn Patrols," looking for the. rascals. They were used for aerial
drops to isolated outposts, usually right at dawn in order to avoid visual
sightings. To the best of my knowledge, the military never got one.
Nor did they this time, despite the fact that all kinds of fighters were

scrambled and sent to the area. By the time they got there, it was all over.
I heard Ted say, "****, I'm faster and can outmaneuver them." So off
the Huey went in pursuit. Glen Wood, the flight mechanic, had an AK-47
and shot the *******s down while the Huey made a few passes.
One went down near the scene and the other pancaked into a hill it
couldn't outclimb, about 13 miles away.
I had to go to Vientiane the next day, so I missed getting any of the
real goodies like Russian pistols, watches and so forth that were
distributed when a Chinook brought one of the wrecks into LS36. One of
the guys did manage to save me some of the canvas from the only
fixed-wing aircraft ever shot down by a chopper."

Cited from:

http://limasite85.us/ann_holland_page_2.htm

If you consider "Soldier of Fortune" to be a somewhat untrustworthy source, there
are plenty of others describing the events. Here's another, slightly differing in
the details:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~jlwebs/misc.html

and a third, ditto:

http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/95unclass/Linder.html

Okay, your turn to tell us all about the the stealth fighter that was shot down
with a handgun;-)

:using a door gun while flying co-speed and
arallel to a UAV should be doable, given that they can get a lot closer than
:any fighter without needing to take avoiding action (owing to much lower --
:zero under ideal conditions -- closure rates. A UAV is a smaller target, but
:likely able to take less violent avoiding action. Put a lead-computing
:sight on the MG and it's easier, or just load it with lots of tracer.
epending on how close they're willing to get (mainly a question of how
:violently the UAV is or might be maneuvering), instead of an LCOSS they might
:be able to get away with a simple laser sight. Alternatively, forward-firing
:rockets with prox. fuses may do the trick, at relatively low cost.

Why go to all this trouble? Use the bloody system that is already
designed to deal with air vehicles.

Because, as Paul has pointed out, it's fairly poorly suited to dealing with this
particular type of target. Doesn't mean it could never do the job, but it's an
inefficient use of resources. Larger UAVs are a different matter.

Guy

SAAF also claims a door gunner kill against a Zimbabwe? Defender.
There are likely to be other accounts as well. Of course the ratio of
fixed vs rotary in not in the Helo's favor
Pain

Grr.. not that it matters since this has long become a mute point
but... Not the SAAF but the Rhodisian AF and certainly not a Zimbabwe
(Rhodesia became Zimbabwe) Defender, but one of the countries
surrounding Rhodesia. The account is in a book titled "The Chopper Boys
of Africa". Mostly a coffee table picture book, but the account should
be verifiable if anyone cares.
Pain
I don't, so don't ask