First IFR flight after checkride

In article ,
(John Clonts) writes:

Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight Guide
for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many of
the
ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What is
your
airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.

Chuck

Thanks Dave for the AOPA web address for the phone numbers for the states that
have a common number for DEL. Interesting to my that Ohio does not have one.
I downloaded the listing and put it in my "bag of tricks" that I carry in the
plane.

Chuck

Dave Butler wrote:
john smith wrote:

As I understand it, you have already obtained your IFR clearance, you
are just being held for release until the other inbound/outbound
traffic is assured to be clear of the airspace. You have your IFR
clearance, you depart VFR to provide the
separation/obstruction/terrain clearance.
Similar to a VFR ON TOP clearance. You are IFR, but you are at a VFR
altitude and assume separation/obstruction/terrain clearance until
such time as you elect to operate at an IFR altitude or encounter IFR
conditions.

That's not what the snippet you posted says. Have you read it?

How about this from
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0403.html

4-3-9. VFR RELEASE OF IFR DEPARTURE

When an aircraft which has filed an IFR flight plan requests a VFR
departure through a terminal facility, FSS, or air/ground communications
station:

a. After obtaining, if necessary, approval from the facility/sector
responsible for issuing the IFR clearance, you may authorize an IFR
flight planned aircraft to depart VFR. Inform the pilot of the proper
frequency and, if appropriate, where or when to contact the facility
responsible for issuing the clearance.

PHRASEOLOGY-
VFR DEPARTURE AUTHORIZED. CONTACT (facility) ON (frequency) AT
(location or time if required) FOR CLEARANCE.

b. If the facility/sector responsible for issuing the clearance is
unable to issue a clearance, inform the pilot, and suggest that the
delay be taken on the ground. If the pilot insists upon taking off VFR
and obtaining an IFR clearance in the air, inform the facility/sector
holding the flight plan of the pilot's intentions and, if possible, the
VFR departure time.

john smith wrote:

How about this from
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0403.html

OK.

john smith wrote in news:59IWc.33911$cT6.15495
@fe2.columbus.rr.com:

Dave Butler wrote:
I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight
plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
nomenclature, or something you made up?

I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.


Unless you are flying a DP, most departures are done under VFR - you see
and avoid obstacles instead of relying on a published procedures.

I have received IFR clearances with a DP, but sometimes I have declined the
DP because I had not reviewed it ahead of time. In such cases I get a VFR
depature. But I am technically under IFR except for the departure.

Dave Butler wrote in
:


Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But
instead
of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of
waiting
for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line
with the
Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say
we'd be departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they
called us. Lesson
learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a
long time
and a big confidence builder.


Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility
for separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting
traffic is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.

I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument
flight plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
nomenclature, or something you made up?



If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an avoid
the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an avoid
the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

Oh, my.

It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another airplane
is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a clearance, or I don't.

AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says they can
do that.

*I* can decide to depart VFR rather than wait for a clearance. That is not an
IFR operation. In that case I am VFR, until I obtain a clearance, whether that's
at my cruising altitude or some other altitude.

*I* can request a VFR climb while on an instrument clearance. "VFR climb" is
defined terminology. "VFR departure" is not.

Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface, with the
issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never seen/heard this
done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it should not be possible, and I
defer to those who say they have done it.

Dave

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
john smith wrote in news:59IWc.33911$cT6.15495
@fe2.columbus.rr.com:


Dave Butler wrote:

I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight
plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
nomenclature, or something you made up?

I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.



Unless you are flying a DP, most departures are done under VFR - you see
and avoid obstacles instead of relying on a published procedures.

Most of my departures for flights that will conductred under IFR are done under
IFR, whether I am flying a DP or not.


I have received IFR clearances with a DP, but sometimes I have declined the
DP because I had not reviewed it ahead of time. In such cases I get a VFR
depature. But I am technically under IFR except for the departure.

How do you get a VFR departure? What is the specific request and clearance
terminology?

Do you just mean you depart VFR and then get a clearance after you're airborne?
In that case, you're not "under IFR" until the clearance is issued, technically
or otherwise.

Dave Butler wrote:


AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says
they can do that.

Right, the pilot has to ask for it.




Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface,
with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never
seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it
should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have done it.

A VFR climb comes in handy in the mountains. Busy places like Salt Lake
see a lot of VFR climbs by the airlines so they don't have to get
vectored to hell and gone for their climb.

Dave Butler wrote:

If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an
avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

Oh, my
It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
clearance, or I don't.

You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
This is a spacing issue.
The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
attained.

john smith wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:


If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you
cannot depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You
see an avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.


Oh, my
It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
clearance, or I don't.


You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
This is a spacing issue.
The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
attained.


OK, this will be my last missive on this subject. I don't think you're getting
it, and I guess you don't think I'm getting it. This is not leading anywhere.

When you request a VFR DEPARTURE (emphasis yours), you are not requesting an IFR
procedure. You're just departing VFR. When the controller grants your request,
he/she's not bestowing any priveleges on you that you didn't have already. You
can always choose to depart VFR. When you depart VFR you're not IFR.

Now, if you request a VFR CLIMB (emphasis mine) that's different. A VFR climb is
an IFR procedure.

Rebut if you like. I'm finished with this conversation.

Good day.