First IFR flight after checkride

If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an avoid
the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

Oh, my.

It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another airplane
is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a clearance, or I don't.

AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says they can
do that.

*I* can decide to depart VFR rather than wait for a clearance. That is not an
IFR operation. In that case I am VFR, until I obtain a clearance, whether that's
at my cruising altitude or some other altitude.

*I* can request a VFR climb while on an instrument clearance. "VFR climb" is
defined terminology. "VFR departure" is not.

Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface, with the
issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never seen/heard this
done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it should not be possible, and I
defer to those who say they have done it.

Dave

Dave Butler wrote:


AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says
they can do that.

Right, the pilot has to ask for it.




Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface,
with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never
seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it
should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have done it.

A VFR climb comes in handy in the mountains. Busy places like Salt Lake
see a lot of VFR climbs by the airlines so they don't have to get
vectored to hell and gone for their climb.

Newps wrote:


Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface,
with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never
seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it
should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have done it.

A VFR climb comes in handy in the mountains. Busy places like Salt Lake
see a lot of VFR climbs by the airlines so they don't have to get
vectored to hell and gone for their climb.



I heard this at FLG just this past Saturday. A dash 8 was departing, and
they got "VFR climb approved" or some such wording, direct from clearance
delivery.

Mike

Dave Butler wrote:

If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an
avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

Oh, my
It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
clearance, or I don't.

You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
This is a spacing issue.
The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
attained.

john smith wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:


If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you
cannot depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You
see an avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.


Oh, my
It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
clearance, or I don't.


You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
This is a spacing issue.
The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
attained.


OK, this will be my last missive on this subject. I don't think you're getting
it, and I guess you don't think I'm getting it. This is not leading anywhere.

When you request a VFR DEPARTURE (emphasis yours), you are not requesting an IFR
procedure. You're just departing VFR. When the controller grants your request,
he/she's not bestowing any priveleges on you that you didn't have already. You
can always choose to depart VFR. When you depart VFR you're not IFR.

Now, if you request a VFR CLIMB (emphasis mine) that's different. A VFR climb is
an IFR procedure.

Rebut if you like. I'm finished with this conversation.

Good day.

john smith wrote:


You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.

You are still a little hazy on this. If you depart VFR you are not in
the system, period. You get absolutely no separation of any kind
whatsoever. You may as well have taken off VFR and requested your
clearance enroute.

Newps wrote:


john smith wrote:


You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.


You are still a little hazy on this. If you depart VFR you are not in
the system, period. You get absolutely no separation of any kind
whatsoever. You may as well have taken off VFR and requested your
clearance enroute.

You already have your clearance (Puddle Jumper 12345 is cleared as
filed, hold for release.)
You just have to get active in the system. That is where the previous
posting comes in. You will be told the who, when, where to contact to
get activated.
Think of it as an amended departure clearance to a point in space (Point
X). Once you reach Point X and contact the facility they will again
amend your clearance to your destination (from Point X). You do not have
to refile, they already have the flight plan on file, they are just
sequencing you into the flow with the required separation.
Yes, you are VFR on an IFR flight plan that has been filed and a
clearance issued, but ATC is not responsible for your separation from
other aircraft. If it VFR, it is a tool to expedite your departure.
Do you want to wait 15 minutes for that 152 that is practicing the VOR
Approach inbound on the hold with a headwind? Or, do you want to depart?

Here is the test to know that I am really VFR and not IFR with a VFR
Departure...

ATC: "Puddle Jumper 12345, squawk VFR."

While waiting for my release, ATC says "I have an aircaft on approach.
Can't release you until he cancels. Can you depart VFR?" I say fine. I
keep the same squawk code, depart under VFR, and then get my release in
the air. Why is this such a big deal?



Dave Butler wrote in
:


If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you
cannot depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You
see an avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising
altitude.

Oh, my.

It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
clearance, or I don't.

AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says
they can do that.

*I* can decide to depart VFR rather than wait for a clearance. That is
not an IFR operation. In that case I am VFR, until I obtain a
clearance, whether that's at my cruising altitude or some other
altitude.

*I* can request a VFR climb while on an instrument clearance. "VFR
climb" is defined terminology. "VFR departure" is not.

Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport
surface, with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure.
I've never seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason
why it should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have
done it.

Dave