Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..

That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather
Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE
controller I can check with.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old.

Ronnie wrote:

Bob,

Was this a center or approach control facility and more
specifically, was the weather info display primary or
NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount
of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm
wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite
broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I
undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes
to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is,
the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well.

Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and
the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing
the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have
experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective
storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC
agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous
this type of weather can be.

I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of
weather.

Ronnie


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the
396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you
need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going,
and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize
that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical
currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay
well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you
have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible.

Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They
showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated
the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the
controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of
the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination.
Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice
and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading,
the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The
message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the
cockpit and real life are two different things."

Bob Gardner

"Dan" wrote in message
egroups.com...

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:51:13 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather
Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned.

There was a news segment the other night on the next generation RADAR.
The researcher made the statement, that when they get it working they
will have "real time" images that are only ten to 15 seconds old
instead of the current 5 minutes.

And here I thought my weather service that said current really meant
current.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE
controller I can check with.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
...
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old.

Ronnie wrote:

Bob,

Was this a center or approach control facility and more
specifically, was the weather info display primary or
NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount
of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm
wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite
broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I
undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes
to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is,
the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well.

Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and
the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing
the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have
experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective
storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC
agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous
this type of weather can be.

I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of
weather.

Ronnie


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the
396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you
need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going,
and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize
that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical
currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay
well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you
have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible.

Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They
showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated
the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the
controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of
the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination.
Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice
and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading,
the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The
message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the
cockpit and real life are two different things."

Bob Gardner

"Dan" wrote in message
legroups.com...

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

Bob Gardner wrote:
That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather
Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE
controller I can check with.

That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

Newps wrote:


Bob Gardner wrote:

That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by
the local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating
for Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and
WARP experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar
and Weather Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was
never mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have
a ZSE controller I can check with.


That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

What about a TRACON with STARS?

OK. Apples and oranges. Way back at the beginning of this thread we were
talking about using an [airborne] 396 weather display. The information sent
to cockpits, installed or handheld, is NEXRAD-based, and I jumped in to
emphasize the point that real-time weather does not exist in the cockpit
unless you have airborne weather radar, which few have. Now, all of a
sudden, you chime in with what you see at a terminal facility? Without
disclosing the kind of facility you work at?

For those late to the discussion, look at this:

http://www.faa.gov/aua/weather/warp/

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Bob Gardner wrote:
That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by
the local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and
Weather Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never
mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a
ZSE controller I can check with.

That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

Bob Gardner wrote:
OK. Apples and oranges. Way back at the beginning of this thread we were
talking about using an [airborne] 396 weather display. The information sent
to cockpits, installed or handheld, is NEXRAD-based, and I jumped in to
emphasize the point that real-time weather does not exist in the cockpit
unless you have airborne weather radar, which few have. Now, all of a
sudden, you chime in with what you see at a terminal facility? Without
disclosing the kind of facility you work at?
\

My recollection is that he has told the group more than once that he
works at Billings TRACON.

Guess I should have remembered that. But then he should not have inserted
his comments about what he sees at a terminal facility into a discussion of
delays in cockpit weather/WARP. His radar doesn't feed NOAAPORT, so his " I
get updated every six seconds" is irrelevant.

Bob

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:QFdjg.178854$bm6.100188@fed1read04...
Bob Gardner wrote:
OK. Apples and oranges. Way back at the beginning of this thread we were
talking about using an [airborne] 396 weather display. The information
sent to cockpits, installed or handheld, is NEXRAD-based, and I jumped in
to emphasize the point that real-time weather does not exist in the
cockpit unless you have airborne weather radar, which few have. Now, all
of a sudden, you chime in with what you see at a terminal facility?
Without disclosing the kind of facility you work at?
\

My recollection is that he has told the group more than once that he works
at Billings TRACON.