Fiberglass vs. Fabric

Lou..........

I have read most of the postings and replies on your idea. The thing that
comes to mind is why you would want to do such a thing? It makes no sense
whatever. Keep in mind the homebuilder's mantra:

"Follow the plans, add only lightness.

Follow the plans, add only lightness.

Follow the plans, add only lightness."

Repeat this every day as you begin your work.

Rich S.

Well, maybe no sense right away, but the plans where drawn quite a
while ago. Like the Emeraude, the invention of fiberglass hadn't
arrived yet. Although I agree with the statement of making it as light
as possible, one of the reason's for this post is to discuss weight.
If this can be done with little or no weight penalty, then I thought I
would consider the experimental part of this group. After all, if Tony
Bingelis did it with good results, then why not consider it? I like the
idea of smoother, flatter, and more solid wings. If it turns out to be
25lbs or more, then I have to re-think this or just consider going on a
diet.
Lou

If you are building an Emeraude, you must have really good taste! That is
one beautiful
aircraft. My advice is if you are completely covering the wing with
plywood - then put on a lightweight covering of fibreglas and West epoxy. If
you are going the partial sheeted, cap strip, open bay route - stick with a
light dacron (heat shrunk) covering system like SuperFlite or something
similar.. it will look nice! Just be sure to follow the manufacturers
instructions procedure/temperature-wise.

Dave
Wittman W10 Tailwind builder

"Lou" wrote in message
ps.com...
Well, maybe no sense right away, but the plans where drawn quite a
while ago. Like the Emeraude, the invention of fiberglass hadn't
arrived yet. Although I agree with the statement of making it as light
as possible, one of the reason's for this post is to discuss weight.
If this can be done with little or no weight penalty, then I thought I
would consider the experimental part of this group. After all, if Tony
Bingelis did it with good results, then why not consider it? I like the
idea of smoother, flatter, and more solid wings. If it turns out to be
25lbs or more, then I have to re-think this or just consider going on a
diet.
Lou

"Lou" wrote in message
ps.com...
Well, maybe no sense right away, but the plans where drawn quite a
while ago. Like the Emeraude, the invention of fiberglass hadn't
arrived yet. Although I agree with the statement of making it as light
as possible, one of the reason's for this post is to discuss weight.
If this can be done with little or no weight penalty, then I thought I
would consider the experimental part of this group. After all, if Tony
Bingelis did it with good results, then why not consider it? I like the
idea of smoother, flatter, and more solid wings. If it turns out to be
25lbs or more, then I have to re-think this or just consider going on a
diet.

I understand where you're coming from, Lou - having had the same dilemma
myself while building the Emeraude. Fortunately we have a good builder
support group who could advise me on the nuances of that particular design.

Covering a wing with plywood that was originally designed for fabric and
open bays, will do more than change the appearance. An aircraft designer has
planned for the weight distribution (hence stress distribution) across the
span and chord. Skinning the wing will change both of those. You may
actually end up with a wing that is heavier, weaker and slower than before.
Do not make these design changes casually. Orville and Wilbur were
successful due to engineering, not trial and error.

First, ask yourself "What am I intending to accomplish by doing this?" Any
change requires more build time and usually more money. There can be other
penalties as well. If you're into engineering and test piloting as a hobby,
knock yourself out. It's your time, money and neck.

Re-engineering an older design can have no limit. Look at the fiberglass
version of the Beech 17 Staggerwing as an example. If you contemplate
changing a fabric wing to a skinned wing, why not go carbon fiber? How about
Nanotubes? Keep the end goal in sight.

Good Luck with your project!

Rich

P.S. The CAP-10C, the newest version of the Emeraude, now has a carbon fiber
spar.

Rich S. wrote:
"Lou" wrote in message
ps.com...

Well, maybe no sense right away, but the plans where drawn quite a
while ago. Like the Emeraude, the invention of fiberglass hadn't
arrived yet. Although I agree with the statement of making it as light
as possible, one of the reason's for this post is to discuss weight.
If this can be done with little or no weight penalty, then I thought I
would consider the experimental part of this group. After all, if Tony
Bingelis did it with good results, then why not consider it? I like the
idea of smoother, flatter, and more solid wings. If it turns out to be
25lbs or more, then I have to re-think this or just consider going on a
diet.


I understand where you're coming from, Lou - having had the same dilemma
myself while building the Emeraude. Fortunately we have a good builder
support group who could advise me on the nuances of that particular design.

Covering a wing with plywood that was originally designed for fabric and
open bays, will do more than change the appearance. An aircraft designer has
planned for the weight distribution (hence stress distribution) across the
span and chord. Skinning the wing will change both of those. You may
actually end up with a wing that is heavier, weaker and slower than before.
Do not make these design changes casually. Orville and Wilbur were
successful due to engineering, not trial and error.

First, ask yourself "What am I intending to accomplish by doing this?" Any
change requires more build time and usually more money. There can be other
penalties as well. If you're into engineering and test piloting as a hobby,
knock yourself out. It's your time, money and neck.

Re-engineering an older design can have no limit. Look at the fiberglass
version of the Beech 17 Staggerwing as an example. If you contemplate
changing a fabric wing to a skinned wing, why not go carbon fiber? How about
Nanotubes? Keep the end goal in sight.

Good Luck with your project!

Rich

P.S. The CAP-10C, the newest version of the Emeraude, now has a carbon fiber
spar.


Does it use that "pulltruded" carbon rod stuff for caps? That stuff is
incredibly strong, far superior to carbon roving in compression and tension.

John

Applying glass over ply skins results in a solid base for a
beautiful finish. Agree about the peel ply for sure.

The inside of the plywood should be sealed. Take a look at System
Three Clear Coat. Pure epoxy, water thin, first coat soaks in a lot.
Two coats does a nice job sealing plywood. Compatable with T-88 even
as a wet coat. In other words, you can paint the second layer of
ClearCoat on the ply skin, apply T-88 to rib caps, and bond
immediately. The other way is to squeege T-88 on to the ply. I guess
any epoxy might work as a sealer, but I like compatability at the rib
line bonds.

Dan Horton

"J.Kahn" wrote in message
... Rich

P.S. The CAP-10C, the newest version of the Emeraude, now has a carbon
fiber spar.
Does it use that "pulltruded" carbon rod stuff for caps? That stuff is
incredibly strong, far superior to carbon roving in compression and
tension.

I don't know. The website of Mudry Aviation has disappeared and I think the
company has been sold. I haven't had occasion to look it up.

Rich S.

Ok, everyone, I've started to experiment with fiberglass. I bought the
foam, the fabric,hardner and resin. I've mix the resin and hardener
with micro balloons and came up with something that resembles honey
dijon salad dressing. I've put it on the foam, layed down the fabric
and then had to mix more resin and hardener. Put that mix on top and
spread it around. Layed down another layer of fabric, mixed more
resin/hardener, spead it around and layed down dacron.
Now the big question, Does this sound correct? Can anyone tell me if
I missed a step? This so far is a test piece, but I know what I can use
it for. I am kinda suprised of how flexable the fiished product is.
Lou

On 25 Jun 2006 03:53:58 -0700, "Lou" wrote:

Ok, everyone, I've started to experiment with fiberglass. I bought the
foam, the fabric,hardner and resin. I've mix the resin and hardener
with micro balloons and came up with something that resembles honey
dijon salad dressing. I've put it on the foam, layed down the fabric
and then had to mix more resin and hardener. Put that mix on top and
spread it around. Layed down another layer of fabric, mixed more
resin/hardener, spead it around and layed down dacron.
Now the big question, Does this sound correct? Can anyone tell me if
I missed a step? This so far is a test piece, but I know what I can use
it for. I am kinda suprised of how flexable the fiished product is.
Lou

nah you've got it totally wrong :-)
y' dont Fiish the bloody stuff you squeegee it out thin.
pretend it's a million dollars a litre and make it extend as far as
possible.
remember "not white, not wet"

forget how flexible it is until it cures.
how heavy is it?

Stealth (glad it's him not me) Pilot

Lou wrote:
Ok, everyone, I've started to experiment with fiberglass. I bought the
foam, the fabric,hardner and resin. I've mix the resin and hardener
with micro balloons and came up with something that resembles honey
dijon salad dressing. I've put it on the foam, layed down the fabric
and then had to mix more resin and hardener. Put that mix on top and
spread it around. Layed down another layer of fabric, mixed more
resin/hardener, spead it around and layed down dacron.
Now the big question, Does this sound correct? Can anyone tell me if
I missed a step? This so far is a test piece, but I know what I can use
it for. I am kinda suprised of how flexable the fiished product is.
Lou


Put a layer of glass on the other side of the foam, then come back and
tell us how flexible it is.

Warning: Make d8mn sure you have the thing jigged to it's finished
position before the opposite side glass sets.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."