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#1
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If he had done that last May the note would have never appeared on the
plate. That remains to be seen. Let's hear what Mr. Harmer has to say. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#2
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![]() "Jose" wrote in message . com... That remains to be seen. Let's hear what Mr. Harmer has to say. I received a response from Mr. Harmer. ADF is required to identify the FAF. Apparently marker beacons cannot be used to determine position along track. His response and my reply follow. Paul I will try to clarify this issue because it is more than a bit confusing. When a procedure isn't absolutely clear on what equipment is required to fly the approach then we have to add notes as necessary so the pilot knows exactly what equipment is needed. For this particular approach the VOR and NDB are used for the procedure and are depicted in the plan view. Their close physical proximity as depicted on the planview could lead a pilot to believe that he could do the hold in lieu pattern using the VOR, but that is not correct. The VOR is only used on the procedure as a feeder and a missed approach holding fix. Now to try and explain. This approach has 2 parts, the full ILS and then the LOC only which must be addressed separately for clarification. There are 2 IAFs identified on this approach, first the hold in lieu at EXECC LOM and secondly the NoPT segment from COUPS INT to EXECC LOM; and 1 feeder route, SAC VORTAC to EXECC LOM. When an aircraft is shooting the full ILS approach from COUPS INT it does not require the use of ADF to fly the final (the precision FAF is based on an altitude not the LOM) or missed approach because 2 missed options are provided. But should the glideslope fail and he has to transition to the LOC only approach, or when flying the LOC only approach, then ADF is required to identify the FAF. The missed approach provides the pilot with 2 possible holding options either going to the SAC VORTAC or the EXECC LOM to hold so ADF required doesn't apply. Mr McNicoll is correct is stating that he is allowed to substitute GPS for ADF in certain circumstances. However we have to consider the least possibly equipped aircraft shooting this approach and that requires that we place an "ADF REQUIRED " note on this approach. I hope this will answer the question for Mr McNicoll. Feel free to contact us anytime Don Harmer Air Traffic Organization-W Western Flight Procedures Team Lead, Western Pacific Area (AJW-324) 405-954-9930 Dear Mr. Harmer, I received your response through Paul Spadero explaining why ADF is required on the SAC ILS or LOC RWY 2 approach. You indicated that ADF is required to identify the FAF when flying the LOC only approach. The FAF is EXECC LOM, why must the pilot use ADF to identify station passage of the Compass Locator? Why can't the Outer Marker be used to identify EXECC? Steven P. McNicoll De Pere, WI |
#3
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Mr
McNicoll is correct is stating that he is allowed to substitute GPS for ADF in certain circumstances. However we have to consider the least possibly equipped aircraft shooting this approach and that requires that we place an "ADF REQUIRED " note on this approach. Why not "ADF OR GPS required"? Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#4
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Jose wrote:
Mr McNicoll is correct is stating that he is allowed to substitute GPS for ADF in certain circumstances. However we have to consider the least possibly equipped aircraft shooting this approach and that requires that we place an "ADF REQUIRED " note on this approach. Why not "ADF OR GPS required"? Jose Good question. I'm sure that will be an option in the not too distant future, but right now you can't mix and match ground-based systems with GPS on published procedures due to TERPS requirements. That's another set of guidelines that allows substitution with GPS in some circumstances, and already you may have seen NOTAMS stating "Procedure NA except for IFR certified GPS equipped aircraft" where the NOTAM specifically allows substitution for DME or ADF ancillary equipment. John |
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On 06/29/06 15:17, JPH wrote:
Jose wrote: Mr McNicoll is correct is stating that he is allowed to substitute GPS for ADF in certain circumstances. However we have to consider the least possibly equipped aircraft shooting this approach and that requires that we place an "ADF REQUIRED " note on this approach. Why not "ADF OR GPS required"? Jose Good question. I'm sure that will be an option in the not too distant future, but right now you can't mix and match ground-based systems with GPS on published procedures due to TERPS requirements. Huh? The AIM has a complete section called "Use of GPS in lieu of ADF and DME" That's another set of guidelines that allows substitution with GPS in some circumstances, and already you may have seen NOTAMS stating "Procedure NA except for IFR certified GPS equipped aircraft" where the NOTAM specifically allows substitution for DME or ADF ancillary equipment. John -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#6
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![]() "JPH" wrote in message news:TjYog.11140$f76.5031@dukeread06... Good question. I'm sure that will be an option in the not too distant future, but right now you can't mix and match ground-based systems with GPS on published procedures due to TERPS requirements. That's another set of guidelines that allows substitution with GPS in some circumstances, and already you may have seen NOTAMS stating "Procedure NA except for IFR certified GPS equipped aircraft" where the NOTAM specifically allows substitution for DME or ADF ancillary equipment. It's an option now. See AIM para 1-1-19.f.: http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19 |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"JPH" wrote in message news:TjYog.11140$f76.5031@dukeread06... Good question. I'm sure that will be an option in the not too distant future, but right now you can't mix and match ground-based systems with GPS on published procedures due to TERPS requirements. That's another set of guidelines that allows substitution with GPS in some circumstances, and already you may have seen NOTAMS stating "Procedure NA except for IFR certified GPS equipped aircraft" where the NOTAM specifically allows substitution for DME or ADF ancillary equipment. It's an option now. See AIM para 1-1-19.f.: http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19 I realize that GPS can be used as a substitute, and pointed that out in my message. His question was why the ground based procedure didn't have a chart note "ADF or GPS required". What I was stating is that TERPS criteria does not yet allow combining ground based and GPS on the chart, that's why the procedure does not say "ADF or GPS required" (A temporary NOTAM can address GPS but the chart can not). As I said, you can use GPS to substitute in some situations based on regulations other than TERPS, but TERPS criteria does not yet allow GPS notes to be charted on ground based procedures (except on the old GPS overlay procedures). TERPS criteria still requires ground based procedures to be built based only on ground based equipment, so your not going to see a "GPS required" note on a ground based procedure. JPH |
#8
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![]() "JPH" wrote in message news:EEmpg.11443$f76.5591@dukeread06... I realize that GPS can be used as a substitute, and pointed that out in my message. You did? Where? His question was why the ground based procedure didn't have a chart note "ADF or GPS required". What I was stating is that TERPS criteria does not yet allow combining ground based and GPS on the chart, that's why the procedure does not say "ADF or GPS required" (A temporary NOTAM can address GPS but the chart can not). As I said, you can use GPS to substitute in some situations based on regulations other than TERPS, but TERPS criteria does not yet allow GPS notes to be charted on ground based procedures (except on the old GPS overlay procedures). TERPS criteria still requires ground based procedures to be built based only on ground based equipment, so your not going to see a "GPS required" note on a ground based procedure. "ADF OR GPS REQUIRED" would just add unnecessary clutter as it's already understood that GPS can substitute for ADF in cases like this. |
#9
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![]() "Jose" wrote in message om... Why not "ADF OR GPS required"? No need for that, GPS can substitute for ADF in this case anyway. But why not "ADF REQUIRED FOR LOC RWY 2"? |
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