A dumb doubt on stalls

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:q2Ymg.49475$ZW3.39824@dukeread04...
Did I ever say that I had taught any particular theory to
any student?

Nope. You said that you're a CFI and that you believe stalls work in a
particular way. Most CFIs teach what they believe to be true about
fundamental aviation matters. Do you do otherwise?

--Gary

In article ,
Gary Drescher wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:q2Ymg.49475$ZW3.39824@dukeread04...
Did I ever say that I had taught any particular theory to
any student?

Nope. You said that you're a CFI and that you believe stalls work in a
particular way. Most CFIs teach what they believe to be true about
fundamental aviation matters. Do you do otherwise?

I predict what I'm about to write will be unpopular, but what the heck.

I certainly agree that any CFI should have a good (and correct)
understanding of the aerodynamics of stalls. That being said, all
your typical pilot really has to know is:

1) Stalls happen when the wing exceeds the critial AOA.

2) This can happen at any airspeed and attitude, but for most people
who fly near 1G almost all the time, "don't get too slow and don't
point the nose up too high" is a pretty good rule of thumb.

3) You can recognize a stall by mushy controls, stall warner going
off, buffet, and/or inability to maintain altitude.

4) You break the stall by reducing the AOA. Again, for most people
who live near 1G and the dirty side down almost all the time, that
means "push the yoke forward".

If a student believes the tailplane stalls at the stall break, and
that's what causes the nose to pitch down, it's not going to kill
them. It's wrong, but it's an esoteric wrong and people don't get
killed by esoteric wrongs.

Not being able to figure out if you have enough fuel to get where
you're going will kill you. Not knowing how to obtain and understand
accurate weather information will kill you. Not understanding that
stomping on the inside rudder to fix a misjudged base-to-final turn
can cause a stall/spin will kill you.

Not understanding the subtle details of the aerodynamics of a stall
such as we've been discussing here may get you a lower score on a
written test, or even make you flunk a CFI oral exam, or get roasted
on usenet, but it won't kill you, and it won't kill your students
either.

OK, you all can beat me up now.

Anyway, everybody really knows that stall recovery works like this:

1) Stall warning buzzer goes off.

2) Pilot instinctively puts his hands to his ears to block out the
annoying noise.

3) As soon as his hands are removed from the yoke, the plane recovers
on its own.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
If a student believes the tailplane stalls at the stall break, and
that's what causes the nose to pitch down, it's not going to kill
them. It's wrong, but it's an esoteric wrong and people don't get
killed by esoteric wrongs.

Roy, I agree with your general point. Much of the detail about how lift and
stalls work is of interest to engineers and physicists, but not to pilots as
such. And I agree that it's useful to present student pilots with as simple
a model as possible that supports the right conclusions about how to fly.
(Students who happen to be curious can learn more complex, more accurate
models.)

Still, I think it's useful to include a bit more information than the points
you enumerated. In particular, some reference to the Bernoulli aspect of
lift, and the separation of the boundary layer during a stall, helps make
clear why the condition of the upper wing surface is important (and why a
thin layer of frost on the upper surface can make it dangerous to take off,
for example).

Similarly, Jim's false model of stalls has some ramifications that are of
interest to pilots. In particular, if Jim's model were correct, then pilots
would have no reason to consider tail stalls more worrisome than normal
stalls (because normal stalls would *be* tail stalls). But Jim's model is
wrong, and a student who took it seriously could get into trouble. That
probably wouldn't happen (because a student who could figure out that
ramification could probably also figure out what's wrong with Jim's
explanation), but it's still an unnecessary risk.

--Gary

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
Gary Drescher wrote:

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:q2Ymg.49475$ZW3.39824@dukeread04...

Did I ever say that I had taught any particular theory to
any student?

Nope. You said that you're a CFI and that you believe stalls work in a
particular way. Most CFIs teach what they believe to be true about
fundamental aviation matters. Do you do otherwise?


I predict what I'm about to write will be unpopular, but what the heck.

I certainly agree that any CFI should have a good (and correct)
understanding of the aerodynamics of stalls. That being said, all
your typical pilot really has to know is:

Roy, the topic of discussion has nothing to do with it. It is the
attitude that accepts being wrong and teaching wrong as not being wrong
that is wrong!
:-)

Matt

I have found that when I give a perfectly correct and
complete answer, there is nothing left to say and the thread
dries up. I just tried and succeeded in stimulating the
conversation.

BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand rule for
electricity or is it the right hand rule?



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Roy Smith wrote:
|
| In article
,
| Gary Drescher wrote:
|
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote in message
| news:q2Ymg.49475$ZW3.39824@dukeread04...
|
| Did I ever say that I had taught any particular theory
to
| any student?
|
| Nope. You said that you're a CFI and that you believe
stalls work in a
| particular way. Most CFIs teach what they believe to be
true about
| fundamental aviation matters. Do you do otherwise?
|
|
| I predict what I'm about to write will be unpopular, but
what the heck.
|
| I certainly agree that any CFI should have a good (and
correct)
| understanding of the aerodynamics of stalls. That being
said, all
| your typical pilot really has to know is:
|
| Roy, the topic of discussion has nothing to do with it.
It is the
| attitude that accepts being wrong and teaching wrong as
not being wrong
| that is wrong!
| :-)
|
| Matt

Jim Macklin wrote:

I have found that when I give a perfectly correct and
complete answer, there is nothing left to say and the thread
dries up. I just tried and succeeded in stimulating the
conversation.

BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand rule for
electricity or is it the right hand rule?

Jim, your doctor prescribed those meds for a reason. Don't stop taking
them again.

Matt

Actually, I found a bottle of antibiotic and it has cleared
up my sinuses. But other than that, I'm drug free.


Forty years ago, when I cut my leg in the horse barn, I did
use some of the horse medicine rather than go to a people
doctor to get a shot. I just gave myself a few ccs of
Combiotic (a mixture of two kinds of antibiotic also
approved for people as well as cats, dogs and horses). I
have also done a little surgery to remove things like nails
in my arms, hands and legs, farm work can be dangerous. But
all my original parts are still attached and fully
functional, so I must have done it well enough.

You'd probably criticize Wolfgang Langewiesche for calling
elevators "flippers" or wonder like me, whether General
McCauliffe really said "Nuts" or used some other common
word(s).


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P





"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| I have found that when I give a perfectly correct and
| complete answer, there is nothing left to say and the
thread
| dries up. I just tried and succeeded in stimulating the
| conversation.
|
| BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand rule
for
| electricity or is it the right hand rule?
|
| Jim, your doctor prescribed those meds for a reason.
Don't stop taking
| them again.
|
| Matt

BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand rule for
electricity or is it the right hand rule?

Yes. I do.

Electricity is made of two parts - electrons and French particles. They
are clearly opposites.

Electrons obey the lEft hand rule. That's because they are liberals -
(liberal begins with an L). They are lightweights compared to other
elementary particles (lightweight begins with an L) and pretty much go
wherever you push them. Protons on the other hand need a lot more push,
and neutrons don't give a damn - they go where they will.

The French do everything differently - they even have a different name
for current - they call it something like "Intensity". Alas, this
abberation survives in the equation V=IR, where I means "current" (or
"amount of French particles") French particles, being nationalistic,
follow the rIght hand rule.

Many people call them Revolutionary particles (revolutionary begins with
R), ostensibly because of the French Revolution. Actually, this makes a
little sense, since in a simple closed electrical circut the Rrench
particles are in fact revolving (around the circuit). But then so do
the electrons, but they go the other way.

This causes quite a commotion, having the French particles going
opposite the Electrons, and they do not get along with each other. They
give each other the finger as they go by, and you can tell which is
which by the kind of finger it gives you.

French particles, or "revolutionary particles", use their rIght hand and
give a very Intense finger - they stick out their thumb and let their
fingers curl showing their contempt of the whole situation. Since the
French (at least French women) have a very magnetic personality, this
creates a magnetic field which follows the way the other fingers curl
around the rIght hand.

Elecrons use their lEft hand, Liberating their thumb and whipping their
other fingers around like a fist. Since Liberals advocate free Lunches,
people are attracted to them, following where their fingers point.
Since it's the LEft hand, this goes opposite from the way the French (or
Revolutionary) particles point. Fortunately, the kind of people that
follow the French are different from the kind of people that follow the
Liberals, and it all works out. Only people get confused - the
particles all know where to go.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 03:59:00 GMT, Jose
wrote:

BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand rule for
electricity or is it the right hand rule?

Yes. I do.

Electricity is made of two parts - electrons and French particles. They
are clearly opposites.

Electrons obey the lEft hand rule. That's because they are liberals -
(liberal begins with an L). They are lightweights compared to other
elementary particles (lightweight begins with an L) and pretty much go
wherever you push them. Protons on the other hand need a lot more push,
and neutrons don't give a damn - they go where they will.

The French do everything differently - they even have a different name
for current - they call it something like "Intensity". Alas, this
abberation survives in the equation V=IR, where I means "current" (or
"amount of French particles") French particles, being nationalistic,
follow the rIght hand rule.

Many people call them Revolutionary particles (revolutionary begins with
R), ostensibly because of the French Revolution. Actually, this makes a
little sense, since in a simple closed electrical circut the Rrench
particles are in fact revolving (around the circuit). But then so do
the electrons, but they go the other way.

This causes quite a commotion, having the French particles going
opposite the Electrons, and they do not get along with each other. They
give each other the finger as they go by, and you can tell which is
which by the kind of finger it gives you.

French particles, or "revolutionary particles", use their rIght hand and
give a very Intense finger - they stick out their thumb and let their
fingers curl showing their contempt of the whole situation. Since the
French (at least French women) have a very magnetic personality, this
creates a magnetic field which follows the way the other fingers curl
around the rIght hand.

Elecrons use their lEft hand, Liberating their thumb and whipping their
other fingers around like a fist. Since Liberals advocate free Lunches,
people are attracted to them, following where their fingers point.
Since it's the LEft hand, this goes opposite from the way the French (or
Revolutionary) particles point. Fortunately, the kind of people that
follow the French are different from the kind of people that follow the
Liberals, and it all works out. Only people get confused - the
particles all know where to go.

Somehow this can be extended to explain conventional current, I'm
sure.

And eagerly waiting.

Don

It is actually all magic. The Earth rotates at 1,000 mph at
the equator and the core is a little slower and at the same
time the Earth is in orbit around the Sun. It is producing
eclectic currents in the core and crust and trying to
balance these with electrical discharges for the
entertainment of the gods. This is generated as an AC
current on a very slow cycle, which causes the Earth's
magnetic field to change over a periods of hundreds of
years. There is an exchange of French particles and
electrons between the Sun and the planets. The Sun is our
local power source but like all circuits is effected by the
other objects in the system. The Sun can increase the
output of energy and this will effect all the planets. For
instance, the Earth and other planets are a little warmer
and our Rovers on Mars have been getting more solar power
than was expected so they have continued to operate past
their designed life expectancy.
As long as the proper bribes are paid to the engineers,
chemists and IBEW the magic will continue to work. NASA has
experimented with collecting free electricity in space by
dragging a long wire in the Earth's magnetic field, but
their fishing reel jammed and the wire over-heated and
broke. Someday they will make a real long extension cord
and send the power from orbit to Las Vegas so the lights can
burn as long as the Earth turns.
If you look in the building codes, the left hand rule is
that the light switch is to be located on the left hand when
the door hinges are on the right as you leave the room and
the reverse if the door is swung from the other side.

No really, the left and right hand rules tell you how to use
a compass to determine positive and negative leads in a DC
circuit without a standard meter. Is it true that if an
electrician is well grounded in his trade, he won't last
long, but if he is insolated from the reality of electricity
he can last nearly forever?

I plan on becoming serious sometime in July when I win the
lottery.


"Don Tuite" wrote in
message ...
| On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 03:59:00 GMT, Jose

| wrote:
|
| BTW, does anybody know how to explain the left hand
rule for
| electricity or is it the right hand rule?
|
| Yes. I do.
|
| Electricity is made of two parts - electrons and French
particles. They
| are clearly opposites.
|
| Electrons obey the lEft hand rule. That's because they
are liberals -
| (liberal begins with an L). They are lightweights
compared to other
| elementary particles (lightweight begins with an L) and
pretty much go
| wherever you push them. Protons on the other hand need a
lot more push,
| and neutrons don't give a damn - they go where they will.
|
| The French do everything differently - they even have a
different name
| for current - they call it something like "Intensity".
Alas, this
| abberation survives in the equation V=IR, where I means
"current" (or
| "amount of French particles") French particles, being
nationalistic,
| follow the rIght hand rule.
|
| Many people call them Revolutionary particles
(revolutionary begins with
| R), ostensibly because of the French Revolution.
Actually, this makes a
| little sense, since in a simple closed electrical circut
the Rrench
| particles are in fact revolving (around the circuit).
But then so do
| the electrons, but they go the other way.
|
| This causes quite a commotion, having the French
particles going
| opposite the Electrons, and they do not get along with
each other. They
| give each other the finger as they go by, and you can
tell which is
| which by the kind of finger it gives you.
|
| French particles, or "revolutionary particles", use their
rIght hand and
| give a very Intense finger - they stick out their thumb
and let their
| fingers curl showing their contempt of the whole
situation. Since the
| French (at least French women) have a very magnetic
personality, this
| creates a magnetic field which follows the way the other
fingers curl
| around the rIght hand.
|
| Elecrons use their lEft hand, Liberating their thumb and
whipping their
| other fingers around like a fist. Since Liberals
advocate free Lunches,
| people are attracted to them, following where their
fingers point.
| Since it's the LEft hand, this goes opposite from the way
the French (or
| Revolutionary) particles point. Fortunately, the kind of
people that
| follow the French are different from the kind of people
that follow the
| Liberals, and it all works out. Only people get
confused - the
| particles all know where to go.
|
| Somehow this can be extended to explain conventional
current, I'm
| sure.
|
| And eagerly waiting.
|
| Don
|