Nothing good about Ethanol

In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:
wrote in message
news
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Where does that leave the rest of us?

Ancient literature.

Why not scientific evidence?

Why not the records from the people that were alive at the time?

Perhaps the Romans were the pawn's of Big Oil?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2...Comparison.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...Variations.png

England was a big wine producer during the Roman period and for a while
after the Romans.

England became too cold for wine production about a millenium ago.

Uh, that is supposed to have been the Medieval Warm Period. You have a poor
grasp of the facts.

You have a poor grasp of reading graphs.

According to your graph refenced above (depending on who's data your use),
the "little ice age" started about a millenium ago.

So what's your problem?

As an aside I find it interesting the graph is asymetrical with the
positive varience going to +.6 and the negative going to about -1.1
degrees.

It makes the positive excursions look impressive.

I would also question the placement of zero and the lack of any mention
of what zero is supposed to represent.

Looking at the same source for a period of 450 thousand years, it looks
like we are currently a little on the cool side.

From that graph I would be more worried about global cooling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png

It is now almost warm enough in England *AGAIN* to produce decent wine.

In specific answer to the "grapes used to grow in England" bit, I like to
point people he

http://www.english-wine.com/index.html

I'm well aware England is again growing grapes and making wine.

I'm also well aware from writting of the times that England grew a
lot of grapes during Roman times and up to about the beginning of the
little ice age, at which time production just about ceased.

It is only in recent time (in terms of centuries) that it has been
warm enough to start producing in quantity again.

Perhaps you should close your web browser, turn off the computer,
and read a few good books, preferably in the original Latin.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:
wrote in message
news
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Where does that leave the rest of us?

Ancient literature.

Why not scientific evidence?

Why not the records from the people that were alive at the time?

Why don't you provide them?

"It is not exactly clear why the number of vineyards declined subsequently.
Some have put it down to an adverse change in the weather which made an
uncertain enterprise even more problematic. Others have linked it with the
dissolution of the monasteries by Henry VIII. Both these factors may have
had some part to play but in all probability the decline was gradual (over
several centuries) and for more complex reasons. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#domesday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2...Comparison.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...Variations.png

England was a big wine producer during the Roman period and for a while
after the Romans.

England became too cold for wine production about a millenium ago.

Uh, that is supposed to have been the Medieval Warm Period. You have a
poor
grasp of the facts.

You have a poor grasp of reading graphs.

According to your graph refenced above (depending on who's data your use),
the "little ice age" started about a millenium ago.

One thousand years ago was about the peak of the MWP. I think you are the
one having trouble reading that graph. The LIA is generally considered to
have started around 1400 though it is not well synchronzed globally.

So what's your problem?

As an aside I find it interesting the graph is asymetrical with the
positive varience going to +.6 and the negative going to about -1.1
degrees.

It makes the positive excursions look impressive.

I would also question the placement of zero and the lack of any mention
of what zero is supposed to represent.

Relax, put away the tinfoil hat, 0 on these plots is generally a
multi-decadal mean centered a few decades ago or thereabouts. The
description states "The instrumental data are anomalies from the 1950-80
reference period." Then the bottom and top range are just what the data
require, no insidious manipulation...

Looking at the same source for a period of 450 thousand years, it looks
like we are currently a little on the cool side.

From that graph I would be more worried about global cooling.

The Milankovitch cycles that controled that saw-tooth pattern would have us
very gradually cooling, though the best estimates say we would not be in an
iceage for another 30-50Kyrs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milanko...les#The_future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png

It is now almost warm enough in England *AGAIN* to produce decent wine.

In specific answer to the "grapes used to grow in England" bit, I like to
point people he

http://www.english-wine.com/index.html

I'm well aware England is again growing grapes and making wine.

I'm also well aware from writting of the times that England grew a
lot of grapes during Roman times and up to about the beginning of the
little ice age, at which time production just about ceased.

"It is said that Julius Caesar brought the vine to England. Nice though that
story is, some scholars think it apocryphal - wine was certainly brought to
Britain by the Romans, but it is less certain whether the vine was grown
here, or if it was, whether it was in sufficent quantity to satisfy the
local requirement for wine or just as an ornament to remind Romans of home
and wealthy Romano-Britons of the source of their civilisation and
prosperity."
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#roman

It is only in recent time (in terms of centuries) that it has been
warm enough to start producing in quantity again.

"The period from the end of the First World War to shortly after the end of
the Second World War may well be the only time in two millennia that vines
to make wine on a substantial scale were not grown in England or Wales.
Doubtless, during that time, there were some vines being grown on a garden
scale by amateur growers, but for more than 25 years there was a total
cessation of viticulture and winemaking on a commercial basis. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#20thcentury

Perhaps you should close your web browser, turn off the computer,
and read a few good books, preferably in the original Latin.

Perhaps you should provide some more substance and less bluster.

--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")

In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Relax, put away the tinfoil hat, 0 on these plots is generally a
multi-decadal mean centered a few decades ago or thereabouts. The

Bingo, we have a winner!

An ad hominem attack on one who would dare to doubt The One True Word.

I knew you could do it.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Relax, put away the tinfoil hat, 0 on these plots is generally a
multi-decadal mean centered a few decades ago or thereabouts. The

Bingo, we have a winner!

An ad hominem attack on one who would dare to doubt The One True Word.

I knew you could do it.

Don't forget to shut the door behind you as you run away!

The following question and points remain unanswered:

Where does that leave the rest of us? [wrt reconstructions of past
climate]

Ancient literature.

Why not scientific evidence?

Why not the records from the people that were alive at the time?

Why don't you provide them?

"It is not exactly clear why the number of vineyards declined subsequently.
Some have put it down to an adverse change in the weather which made an
uncertain enterprise even more problematic. Others have linked it with the
dissolution of the monasteries by Henry VIII. Both these factors may have
had some part to play but in all probability the decline was gradual (over
several centuries) and for more complex reasons. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#domesday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2...Comparison.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...Variations.png

England was a big wine producer during the Roman period and for a while
after the Romans.

England became too cold for wine production about a millenium ago.

Uh, that is supposed to have been the Medieval Warm Period. You have a
poor
grasp of the facts.

You have a poor grasp of reading graphs.

According to your graph refenced above (depending on who's data your use),
the "little ice age" started about a millenium ago.

One thousand years ago was about the peak of the MWP. I think you are the
one having trouble reading that graph. The LIA is generally considered to
have started around 1400 though it is not well synchronzed globally.

Looking at the same source for a period of 450 thousand years, it looks
like we are currently a little on the cool side.

From that graph I would be more worried about global cooling.

The Milankovitch cycles that controled that saw-tooth pattern would have us
very gradually cooling, though the best estimates say we would not be in an
iceage for another 30-50Kyrs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milanko...les#The_future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png

It is now almost warm enough in England *AGAIN* to produce decent wine.

In specific answer to the "grapes used to grow in England" bit, I like to
point people he

http://www.english-wine.com/index.html

I'm well aware England is again growing grapes and making wine.

I'm also well aware from writting of the times that England grew a
lot of grapes during Roman times and up to about the beginning of the
little ice age, at which time production just about ceased.

"It is said that Julius Caesar brought the vine to England. Nice though that
story is, some scholars think it apocryphal - wine was certainly brought to
Britain by the Romans, but it is less certain whether the vine was grown
here, or if it was, whether it was in sufficent quantity to satisfy the
local requirement for wine or just as an ornament to remind Romans of home
and wealthy Romano-Britons of the source of their civilisation and
prosperity."
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#roman

It is only in recent time (in terms of centuries) that it has been
warm enough to start producing in quantity again.

"The period from the end of the First World War to shortly after the end of
the Second World War may well be the only time in two millennia that vines
to make wine on a substantial scale were not grown in England or Wales.
Doubtless, during that time, there were some vines being grown on a garden
scale by amateur growers, but for more than 25 years there was a total
cessation of viticulture and winemaking on a commercial basis. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#20thcentury

Perhaps you should close your web browser, turn off the computer,
and read a few good books, preferably in the original Latin.

Perhaps you should provide some more substance and less bluster.


--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")

In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:
wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Relax, put away the tinfoil hat, 0 on these plots is generally a
multi-decadal mean centered a few decades ago or thereabouts. The

Bingo, we have a winner!

An ad hominem attack on one who would dare to doubt The One True Word.

I knew you could do it.

Don't forget to shut the door behind you as you run away!

Bingo, yet another ad hominem, with the implication I am a coward incapable
of facing The Truth!

What makes you think you are worth bothering to respond to any further
now that you've shown your true colors?

snip remaining

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:
wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Coby Beck wrote:

snip

Relax, put away the tinfoil hat, 0 on these plots is generally a
multi-decadal mean centered a few decades ago or thereabouts. The

Bingo, we have a winner!

An ad hominem attack on one who would dare to doubt The One True Word.

I knew you could do it.

Don't forget to shut the door behind you as you run away!

Bingo, yet another ad hominem, with the implication I am a coward
incapable
of facing The Truth!

Ad hominem is when I attempt to refute your argument by attacking you in a
personal way. Since you offered no argument whatsoever, my empirical
observation of your cowardice can not be interpreted as any kind of
refutation, thus not ad hominem. It is not even an insult as it is a
statement of fact: I presented detailed, substantiated and logical
discussion and you snipped it all, made up a transparent excuse, insulted me
and ran away from the discussion.

Your unsupported assertion that the MWP was globally warmer than today does
not match the available evidence. Your anecdote about Romans, England and
wine is apparently a myth and does not logically imply anything about global
climate at that time nor today's climate change.

There is no shame in being wrong, being wilfully ignorant on the other hand
is inexcusable.

--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")

[Repost in case you have a change of heart]
The following question and points remain unanswered:

Where does that leave the rest of us? [wrt reconstructions of past
climate]

Ancient literature.

Why not scientific evidence?

Why not the records from the people that were alive at the time?

Why don't you provide them?

"It is not exactly clear why the number of vineyards declined subsequently.
Some have put it down to an adverse change in the weather which made an
uncertain enterprise even more problematic. Others have linked it with the
dissolution of the monasteries by Henry VIII. Both these factors may have
had some part to play but in all probability the decline was gradual (over
several centuries) and for more complex reasons. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#domesday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2...Comparison.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...Variations.png

England was a big wine producer during the Roman period and for a while
after the Romans.

England became too cold for wine production about a millenium ago.

Uh, that is supposed to have been the Medieval Warm Period. You have a
poor
grasp of the facts.

You have a poor grasp of reading graphs.

According to your graph refenced above (depending on who's data your use),
the "little ice age" started about a millenium ago.

One thousand years ago was about the peak of the MWP. I think you are the
one having trouble reading that graph. The LIA is generally considered to
have started around 1400 though it is not well synchronzed globally.

Looking at the same source for a period of 450 thousand years, it looks
like we are currently a little on the cool side.

From that graph I would be more worried about global cooling.

The Milankovitch cycles that controled that saw-tooth pattern would have us
very gradually cooling, though the best estimates say we would not be in an
iceage for another 30-50Kyrs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milanko...les#The_future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png

It is now almost warm enough in England *AGAIN* to produce decent wine.

In specific answer to the "grapes used to grow in England" bit, I like to
point people he

http://www.english-wine.com/index.html

I'm well aware England is again growing grapes and making wine.

I'm also well aware from writting of the times that England grew a
lot of grapes during Roman times and up to about the beginning of the
little ice age, at which time production just about ceased.

"It is said that Julius Caesar brought the vine to England. Nice though that
story is, some scholars think it apocryphal - wine was certainly brought to
Britain by the Romans, but it is less certain whether the vine was grown
here, or if it was, whether it was in sufficent quantity to satisfy the
local requirement for wine or just as an ornament to remind Romans of home
and wealthy Romano-Britons of the source of their civilisation and
prosperity."
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#roman

It is only in recent time (in terms of centuries) that it has been
warm enough to start producing in quantity again.

"The period from the end of the First World War to shortly after the end of
the Second World War may well be the only time in two millennia that vines
to make wine on a substantial scale were not grown in England or Wales.
Doubtless, during that time, there were some vines being grown on a garden
scale by amateur growers, but for more than 25 years there was a total
cessation of viticulture and winemaking on a commercial basis. "
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html#20thcentury

Perhaps you should close your web browser, turn off the computer,
and read a few good books, preferably in the original Latin.

Perhaps you should provide some more substance and less bluster.