What to do about North Korea...?

In article ,
Jose wrote:

Then say so. Calling them vandals grossly misrepresents the problems
and the dangers. It's irresponsible.

Actually, I am looking from a larger point of view - that of injury to
the country, not to individuals.

Perhaps you should consider that protecting a country without
protecting its citizens is useles. Plug that into your alleged
larger view.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Perhaps you should consider that protecting a country without
protecting its citizens is useles.

This is true. What is your point? We are not protecting the country
against terrorism by beating the hornet's nest with a baseball bat - our
Iraq debacle is utter folly. The nature of that problem is quite
different than the nature of the North Korea problem.

And no, I don't have a solution. I do know that for diplomacy to work,
our word must be good and our "big stick" must be credible and
effective. To be effective, it must be a stick we are willing to use,
and one we can get away with using.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

And no, I don't have a solution. I do know that for diplomacy to work,
our word must be good and our "big stick" must be credible and
effective. To be effective, it must be a stick we are willing to use,
and one we can get away with using.

Hmm, let's see. In the last dozen or so years, we've:

- Gone to war in the Balkans, and overthrown a tyrant or two.
- Gone to war in Iraq, and overthrown a tyrant or two.
- Gone to war in Afghanistan, and overthrown the most evil regime in
history.

What part of our "Big Stick" aren't you getting?

North Korea's leaders are acting irresponsibly if they don't think
there is a big stick floating off shore.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

- Gone to war in the Balkans, and overthrown a tyrant or two.
- Gone to war in Iraq, and overthrown a tyrant or two.
- Gone to war in Afghanistan, and overthrown the most evil regime in
history.

What part of our "Big Stick" aren't you getting?

I don't know about the Balkans, but in Iraq we have not overthrown a
tyrant or two that hasn't been replaced by another tyrant or three. In
Afghanistan, we did =not= overthrow the most evil regime in history; we
slowed that particular branch of terrorism a bit, while allowing it to
breed elsewhere like a hydra. We are going to win the war on terrorism
the same way we won the war on drugs. Our stick isn't even that big -
by all reports I've read, we don't even equip our troops properly.

As for North Korea being irresponsible,

The world (yes, it's not just your horrid
United States of America)warned North Korea not to launch any more
missiles toward Japan under the guise of "testing" them.

In response, they launched not one, but SEVEN missiles, provoking what
could have been an all-out retaliatory strike.

I suppose you believe these missile launches were the act of a sane
government? Good grief...

Yes, I do. A dangerous one to be sure. But defying orders is not the
mark of insanity. It is important to understand how the enemy thinks
and what they value. It's a grave error to evaluate them based on how
-we- think.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I don't know about the Balkans, but in Iraq we have not overthrown a
tyrant or two that hasn't been replaced by another tyrant or three.

??? What news reports are you reading?

The democratically elected government in Iraq (their first, ever) is
running about as well as, oh, let's say, the Cabrini Green district of
Chicago -- but it *is* running.

If you're referring to the insurgents blowing up innocents, well,
that's about the same thing that happens in America's inner cities
every day. Scum is scum, everywhere.

In
Afghanistan, we did =not= overthrow the most evil regime in history; we
slowed that particular branch of terrorism a bit,

Really? Again, what news reports are you reading? I don't believe the
Taliban has held office since our rather abrupt arrival.

Oh, wait, you're referring to the street violence again. Check out
East St. Louis on a Saturday night, and report back how well our own
democracy is working there.

You guys are hilarious. You expect democracy to work in the Middle
East overnight, when we've got portions of many American inner cities
that -- after 230 years -- can't even be patrolled safely by law
enforcement, let alone visited by normal Americans. .

Give it time. Sane people eventually LIKE democracy, flawed though it
may be.

I suppose you believe these missile launches were the act of a sane
government? Good grief...

Yes, I do. A dangerous one to be sure. But defying orders is not the
mark of insanity. It is important to understand how the enemy thinks
and what they value. It's a grave error to evaluate them based on how
-we- think.

Yes -- but it is THEIR grave error.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

I don't know about the Balkans, but in Iraq we have not overthrown a
tyrant or two that hasn't been replaced by another tyrant or three.

??? What news reports are you reading?

Apparently, the same one's that I've been reading, where those in the
Iraqi "government" are imposing unsanctioned rules on the locals in the
few small areas where they can function at all.

Oh, wait, you're referring to the street violence again. Check out
East St. Louis on a Saturday night, and report back how well our own
democracy is working there.

You guys are hilarious. You expect democracy to work in the Middle
East overnight, when we've got portions of many American inner cities
that -- after 230 years -- can't even be patrolled safely by law
enforcement, let alone visited by normal Americans. .

When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know* of
what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments, I'd say
you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such areas
were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is pretty much
unchanged too. It isn't that those areas "...can't even be patrolled
safely by law enforcement...", they certainly could be, but aren't. So,
gangs and mob rule fill the void created by the lack of law enforcement
who are spending their time and resources in more affluent areas of the
city. The same choice has been made by local governments for over a
hundred years in cities like New York and Chicago. And, those police
departments are well known for their "integrity", aren't they?

Give it time. Sane people eventually LIKE democracy, flawed though it
may be.

If those residents weren't being disenfranchised at the polls, perhaps
they could give it a try.

Neil

When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know* of
what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments, I'd say
you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Quite incorrect. I spent seven years collecting money in hard-core
inner city areas of Racine and Kenosha, WI -- on the "drug road" (I-94)
from Chicago to Milwaukee.

I've stepped across bodies to get into an apartment complex -- have
you?

And these areas are tiny examples of what's going on in the really big
inner cities -- yet they were areas that "normal" Americans --
including law enforcement officials -- feared to tread. (Luckily, I was
young and dumb...and got out alive.)

The only difference between these areas, and Baghdad, is the size of
the explosives used.

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such areas
were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is pretty much
unchanged too.

Wrong. Inner cities grow like a fungus. What were once beautiful
parts of Milwaukee and Racine are now uninhabitable by normal
Americans. Gunshots ring out with regularity, and police are either
paid off or afraid.

Sound familiar? Does Baghdad come to mind?

It isn't that those areas "...can't even be patrolled
safely by law enforcement...", they certainly could be, but aren't. So,
gangs and mob rule fill the void created by the lack of law enforcement
who are spending their time and resources in more affluent areas of the
city.

That, my friend, is crap. Affluent areas generally receive miminal law
enforcement money -- why? Because there's no crime there. Cops just
don't have time to patrol a sleep, affluent suburb.

Where the money goes is to the "border" areas -- the fuzzy no-man's
land between the inner city and the "nice" parts of town. Sadly, in my
experience, for every piece of inner city that is "gentrified" (brought
back to liveability), there are three that sink into the putrid mess
known as "the ghetto".

Sound familiar?

Again -- you guys that expect democracy to work overnight in Iraq are
simply showing your ignorance. It won't happen -- no, it CAN'T happen
-- in a mere four years. Or ten. It hasn't happened here (in many
parts of America) yet.

The same choice has been made by local governments for over a
hundred years in cities like New York and Chicago. And, those police
departments are well known for their "integrity", aren't they?

Many choices are made -- just not the ones you think are being made.
The reason the police departments in Chicago and New York (and others)
have grown corrupt is because our namby-pamby court system simply
refuses to take the criminal element off the streets. I've spoken to
many police officers who won't arrest or detain a known criminal,
simply because there is no point. They'll be on the street again in
hours -- and the cop will have to fill out endless paperwork, and
(perhaps) appear in court.

Sound familiar?

If those residents weren't being disenfranchised at the polls, perhaps
they could give it a try.

Which residents -- Iraqi or American?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
. com...
Recently, Jay Honeck posted:


When was that last time you spent any time in one of our major inner
cities, Jay? What do you *know* of living there? What do you *know* of
what is and isn't "rational behavior" there? From your comments, I'd say
you've spent no time in that environment; is that incorrect?

Life in those areas has been pretty much the same ever since such areas
were built, and the reason for the violence in those areas is pretty much
unchanged too.

Unmitigated BS! Read Thomas Sowell's story about Harlem specifically (upper
middle class blacks moved there to get away from the Irish and Italians) and
the entirety of 'Migrations and Cultures: A World View' to dispel that
nonsense.

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
North Korea's leaders are acting irresponsibly if they don't think there
is a big stick floating off shore.


NK's leader(s) have seen the US invade countries like Panama,
Serbia/Yugo/Bosnia, Somalia, Iraq(x2), Afghanistan, etc, etc.

NK's leader(s) know the US negotiates with countries with nukes - Iran and
Pakistan come to mind.

NK's leader(s) wants to be in the second group.

"You are smart... you will make us strong... you will help us go..."


Montblack
"We Like Things That Make Us Go!"...Pakled Captain
The Samaritan Snare
Star Trek - TNG: Season Two
Episode: 17 (#143)