Oshkosh arrivals

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:04:56 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote in ::

It is a rare year that at least 6 don't die either on the way to or on the
way home from Osh.

That is truly tragic and pathetic. Is that the best airmen can do?

Some years there are no fatals in the immediate area,
and some years there are several fatals due to airport operations.

I would say they were probably due to pilot incompetence rather than
blame airport operations.

What sort of image do such statistics about airmen conger in the minds
of the lay public?

What sort of program does the Experimental Aircraft Association have
in place to reduce the death toll resulting from AirVenture
attendance?

What sort of program does the Experimental Aircraft Association have
in place to reduce the death toll resulting from AirVenture
attendance?

Alot of times, these aren't the sort of things EAA can do anything
about. What can EAA do about a stall/spin on short final? That's been
happening since shortly after the Wright Bros, and I suspect it always
will.
You can make all the rules you want, but showing up unprepared is hard
to prevent. Sanction and punish, sure maybe (but very much NOT likely),
but not prevent.

I just don't fathom how you can fly to this without at least reading
the NOTAM...

One other story told by Jay: apparantly they heard two pilots flying
together on the air-air frequency; one was trying to download the NOTAM
onto their PDA, and then trying to read it to the other pilot...?!?!

Oy vay!

wrote

One other story told by Jay: apparantly they heard two pilots flying
together on the air-air frequency; one was trying to download the NOTAM
onto their PDA, and then trying to read it to the other pilot...?!?!

I'll bet I heard at least one pilot an hour that had obviously not read the
NOTAM. Some more slipped through following the leader that I had not
identified, I suspect. Shoot, as I was sitting near my computer last night,
it was nearly 10:00 PM, and I had not closed the live ATC link. I heard
someone trying to raise OSHKOSH tower, with no luck, of course. Someone
finally came (from the ground, on a handheld, I think) on and told them that
they were closed for the night. Is that clueless, or what?

Others had come in (earlier), announced, and were not where they were
supposed to be, and not following procedures, and the controller asked if
they had checked in earlier, according to the notam. No, they answered. He
fit them in, anyway. I would have told them to climb to above pattern
altitude, and to go to Ripon, land and figure it out. Buttheads!
--
Jim in NC

Shoot, as I was sitting near my computer last night,
it was nearly 10:00 PM, and I had not closed the live ATC link. I heard
someone trying to raise OSHKOSH tower, with no luck, of course. Someone
finally came (from the ground, on a handheld, I think) on and told them that
they were closed for the night. Is that clueless, or what?

I do believe the guy landed, too. We saw one guy swing overhead onto
Rwy 18, LOOOOOOONG after the field was closed for the day....

Others had come in (earlier), announced, and were not where they were
supposed to be, and not following procedures, and the controller asked if
they had checked in earlier, according to the notam. No, they answered. He
fit them in, anyway. I would have told them to climb to above pattern
altitude, and to go to Ripon, land and figure it out. Buttheads!

I agree -- and this would solve a LOT of problmes.

The day of the accident, guys that were ignoring instructions by coming
up the tracks from Ripon were being cleared to land -- while dozens of
guys (who were following the instructions) were holding endlessly
around Rush and Green lakes.

Those ignorant, inconsiderate pilots were completely ignoring the
controller's instructions to enter the hold and were really gumming up
the works -- but if the FISK controller had simply said "Blue and white
high wing, turn left NOW and enter the hold" (instead of clearing them
through to land), the problem would have been greatly alleviated.

As it was, the guys who were holding for two hours were very, VERY
aggravated to hear/watch as these "scoff-laws" were being cleared to
land. This lead to some aggressively stupid radio talk (I heard one
guy threaten to ram another plane if he didn't speed up!), and could
have lead to disaster.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The day of the accident, guys that were ignoring instructions by coming
up the tracks from Ripon were being cleared to land -- while dozens of
guys (who were following the instructions) were holding endlessly
around Rush and Green lakes.

One year we were just rolling out on 36 after doing the whole RIPON
thing when some clown showed up in a Bonanza calling the tower on
3 mile final, totally clueless about the whole RIPON thing (or the
general concept of class D airspace). I suspect the tower figured
it was less safety impact to just let them land than having them
turn around in face of all the other arrivals and cleared them to
land on runway 36L (which is the only runway 36 most times of year).
The bo pilot asked which one 36 was...there was a rather condescending
"It's the one with the big numbers and the dotted line down the
middle."

(Of course, I was standing on taxiway Papa when a plane landed there
one year as well).

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m...
:
: The day of the accident, guys that were ignoring instructions by coming
: up the tracks from Ripon were being cleared to land -- while dozens of
: guys (who were following the instructions) were holding endlessly
: around Rush and Green lakes.
:
: One year we were just rolling out on 36 after doing the whole RIPON
: thing when some clown showed up in a Bonanza calling the tower on
: 3 mile final, totally clueless about the whole RIPON thing (or the
: general concept of class D airspace). I suspect the tower figured
: it was less safety impact to just let them land than having them
: turn around in face of all the other arrivals and cleared them to
: land on runway 36L (which is the only runway 36 most times of year).
: The bo pilot asked which one 36 was...there was a rather condescending
: "It's the one with the big numbers and the dotted line down the
: middle."
:
: (Of course, I was standing on taxiway Papa when a plane landed there
: one year as well).


Folks on instrument flight plans come in that way when they are handed off from approach - don't know if that is the
case here...

Ron Natalie wrote:
(Of course, I was standing on taxiway Papa when a plane landed there
one year as well).

Ron,

That is a frighteningly common occurrence. We call those runways 18
Left, 18 Right, and 18 Wrong (Papa).

Cheers,
Garrett

wrote in message
ups.com...
Ron Natalie wrote:
(Of course, I was standing on taxiway Papa when a plane landed there
one year as well).

Ron,

That is a frighteningly common occurrence. We call those runways 18
Left, 18 Right, and 18 Wrong (Papa).

Chuckle Yep, I've not been out there when one landed, but almost. He
sidestepped at the last moment, when ATC yelled at him. I was monitoring
tower in one ear.

I was on Papa when someone took off from it, one year! I stood there and
saw it and told someone else, "watch out, it looks like he is getting ready
to take off!" and sure enough, he did!
--
Jim in NC

wrote in message
ups.com...



What sort of program does the Experimental Aircraft Association have
in place to reduce the death toll resulting from AirVenture
attendance?

Alot of times, these aren't the sort of things EAA can do anything
about. What can EAA do about a stall/spin on short final? That's been
happening since shortly after the Wright Bros, and I suspect it always
will.
You can make all the rules you want, but showing up unprepared is hard
to prevent. Sanction and punish, sure maybe (but very much NOT likely),
but not prevent.

I just don't fathom how you can fly to this without at least reading
the NOTAM...

Based on my experience flying in I would guess less than 75% even know there
is a NOTAM.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:44:37 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:04:56 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote in ::

It is a rare year that at least 6 don't die either on the way to or on the
way home from Osh.

It's not usually quite that bad and is usually a lot better than
Sun-n'-fun..


That is truly tragic and pathetic. Is that the best airmen can do?

The majority usually do happen some where other than at the field so
we don't hear about them until later.


Some years there are no fatals in the immediate area,
and some years there are several fatals due to airport operations.

I would say they were probably due to pilot incompetence rather than
blame airport operations.

What sort of image do such statistics about airmen conger in the minds
of the lay public?

Probably about the same as they do in mine.

We were all taught stabilized patterns as students, but few go much
beyond that. Fewer yet practice to the point of not only knowing the
edges of the envelope for the planes they fly, but being able to feel
the edge.

Put a pilot who is used to flying a stabilized pattern and carries an
extra 10 knots for comfort on final, five for the kids, five for ma,
and the full gust factor into a line of planes that causes him to get
any where near MCA to stay in line and it's a receipt for disaster.

Now he's flying at unfamiliar airspeeds, has people telling him when
to turn base and final at such slow airspeeds, and he gets rattled
when ever he sees another plane within a 1000 feel let alone 500. Now
he finds planes within a couple hundred feet. Instead of S-turns to
stay clear of the plane in front he slows down more and gets fixated
on the tail of the plane in front and forgets to watch the air speed.
He doesn't even have to cross control on base to final to stall. It's
a wonder more don't end up short of the runway.

As I've said before, this is no place for a pilot who always flies a
stabilized pattern and doesn't know the limitations of the airplane
and the feel of those limitations.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


What sort of program does the Experimental Aircraft Association have
in place to reduce the death toll resulting from AirVenture
attendance?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com