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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
... On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:14:06 -0600, Newps wrote in :: I'm not appalled at all. I've worked as a controller at many airshows, all much smaller than OSH. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid so many pilots are. They have no clue how to operate in controlled airspace. The fact that there's only 10 or so deaths at OSH is remarkable. It saddens me to hear that depressing news coming from an experienced Air Traffic Controller. Their misdeeds reflect badly on the rest of their fellows in the eyes of the public. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at yours and Newps's surprise. Especially his, since he goes around calling practically everyone stupid anyway. The truth is, most people are stupid. Half have two-digit IQs. Even among the supposedly smart people, there's a consistent lack of common sense. And in spite of those who would like to think we pilots are an elite group, there's about the same proportion of stupidity in aviation as in the general population. Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6 deaths per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10 deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population. What's really annoying is that this sort of predictable outcome is somehow considered unusually bad by those outside aviation (or those within, for that matter). People kill themselves doing stupid things all the time. The only reason we don't have more motor vehicle fatalities each year is that the vehicles themselves have been made so much safer. We have more accidents than ever (due to rising population), but fatalities have remained roughly level at around 50,000 per year. But is that because people have gotten smarter? Nope...they're just as dumb as they've always been. We've just engineered some of the risk out of driving. Similar advancements have not made it to aviation, and of course there are a variety of reasons that aviation accidents tend to involve higher forces anyway (airplanes need airspeed to fly, helicopters don't glide very well, especially if there's been some kind of severe mechanical failure, etc.). But if the accident rate at Oshkosh, or in GA generally, reflects poorly on pilots specifically, then it reflects poorly on humanity in general. Those who look down upon all the people causing accidents forget just what kind of animal a human is after all. As long as humans exist, there will be a significant number of them finding ways to kill themselves. Most of the time, those ways won't even be new and unique or interesting in any way. They'll just be plain dumb. Pete |
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"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
... [...] Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6 deaths per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10 deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population. Sorry...I misread the AOPA article I was looking at. 2000/year is the accident rate, not the fatality rate. The fatalities are about a third in number of the total accident rate. Still...6 or 10 doesn't sound that out of line, especially when you consider the high-risk environment (naturally, you will see a higher accident and fatality rate in higher-risk environments, by definition). In any case, I still hold to my assertion that no one should be surprised that there are stupid pilots. |
#3
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![]() "Peter Duniho" wrote in message ... "Peter Duniho" wrote in message ... [...] Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6 deaths per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10 deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population. Sorry...I misread the AOPA article I was looking at. 2000/year is the accident rate, not the fatality rate. The fatalities are about a third in number of the total accident rate. Still...6 or 10 doesn't sound that out of line, especially when you consider the high-risk environment (naturally, you will see a higher accident and fatality rate in higher-risk environments, by definition). In any case, I still hold to my assertion that no one should be surprised that there are stupid pilots. A couple of thoughts: 1) For the Saturday flyer, Oshkosh is one of few times each year when s/he'll load up the airplane to the max, then have to fly the airplane well in a tight pattern. This greatly increases the risk factor. 2) Beyond that, lots of aircraft arrive at the fly-in with legal CG's, but loaded well aft of where the pilot is accustomed to flying the aircraft. Both of these issues are proficiency related, and I'm not sure anyone but Darwin can address that one. Next, there is the idiot factor. I believe the FAA can address some of this. For example, the person who flys the approach completely wrong, doesn't follow the NOTAM, etc. Those folks should get pulled aside after their hopefully safe arrival, and the FAA should politely make sure they have their stuff together... - Show me your copy of the NOTAM. - Why didn't you follow the procedures? - etc. I'm not calling for this for the guy who bounces a landing, but for the people who obviously don't have a clue, there should be some remedial action taken. KB |
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:23:06 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in :: A couple of thoughts: 3. The proportion of aircraft building airman who attend AirVenture is much larger than the general population of pilots. While piloting requires certain skills and knowledge, home building skills and knowledge do not significantly contribute to good airmanship. I would think it would be difficult to MASTER BOTH arts. |
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![]() Kyle Boatright wrote: Next, there is the idiot factor. I believe the FAA can address some of this. For example, the person who flys the approach completely wrong, doesn't follow the NOTAM, etc. Those folks should get pulled aside after their hopefully safe arrival, and the FAA should politely make sure they have their stuff together... - Show me your copy of the NOTAM. - Why didn't you follow the procedures? - etc. I've never been to OSH, but based on what I've seen at other places the FAA can't dream of having the manpower available to have a chat with every pilot that screws up the arrival. |
#6
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Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a
Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest. The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes don't actually occur. |
#7
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![]() Viperdoc wrote: Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest. The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes don't actually occur. That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff and fly the procedure." |
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Newps wrote:
Viperdoc wrote: Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest. The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes don't actually occur. That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff and fly the procedure." You have no idea how much I wish controllers at ADS would start doing that. It's no Oshkosh, but for crying out loud, people, how hard is it to a)comprehend the requirements for entering class D and b)learn to read a map and figure out whether we are north or south of the airport? |
#9
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I agree with you- if I had been the controller I would have been sorely
tempted to tell the pilot to get an effing clue and go away until you had some idea as to what was going on.The idiot tied up a lot of valuable radio time with his "ah's, uh, I'm not so sure where I am, what do I do next, etc" Perhaps this is why the OSH controllers are hand picked volunteers. This reminds me of a time when I was flying at St. Augustine, before they had a tower. They used multiple simultaneous intersecting runways, and there was a lot of student training activity as well. Some guy was mumbling on the CTAF about where he was "over the river" trying to land, blah, blah, blah, Cessna blah, blah, blah, a 172 blah, blah, blah- you get the picture .. I announced that I was entering the midfield downwind for another runway, and he started going through 60 questions as to where I was, what color airplane, the name of my firstborn, and other quesitons, tying up a lot of airtime during a busy day. I told him over the air maybe he should talk less and look out the window instead. One of my friends and aerobatic instructors who now works in a contract tower but is retired from the FAA gave me some great advice, when I used to read back every instruction: the less you say over the air, the less chance of screwing something up. The only thing that you absolutely have to repeat is a hold short instruction, the rest can be "roger", or "say again" It seems to work pretty well so far. "Newps" wrote in message . .. Viperdoc wrote: Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest. The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes don't actually occur. That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff and fly the procedure." |
#10
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On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:00:22 -0600, Newps wrote:
Viperdoc wrote: Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest. The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes don't actually occur. That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff and fly the procedure." Ahhh... I'd think the last thing I'd want to do it take some one who has already proven themselves to be completely clueless turn around and fly *toward* all those airplanes coming into Oshkosh. If he's 5 SW he's already in the dense traffic with far more coming toward him than away. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
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