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Oshkosh arrivals



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 24th 06, 10:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Duniho
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Posts: 774
Default Oshkosh arrivals

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:14:06 -0600, Newps wrote
in ::

I'm not appalled at all. I've worked as a controller at many airshows,
all much smaller than OSH. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid so
many pilots are. They have no clue how to operate in controlled
airspace. The fact that there's only 10 or so deaths at OSH is
remarkable.


It saddens me to hear that depressing news coming from an experienced
Air Traffic Controller. Their misdeeds reflect badly on the rest of
their fellows in the eyes of the public.


Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at yours and Newps's surprise. Especially his,
since he goes around calling practically everyone stupid anyway.

The truth is, most people are stupid. Half have two-digit IQs. Even among
the supposedly smart people, there's a consistent lack of common sense. And
in spite of those who would like to think we pilots are an elite group,
there's about the same proportion of stupidity in aviation as in the general
population.

Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6 deaths
per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with
fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the huge
amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10 deaths
per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population.

What's really annoying is that this sort of predictable outcome is somehow
considered unusually bad by those outside aviation (or those within, for
that matter). People kill themselves doing stupid things all the time. The
only reason we don't have more motor vehicle fatalities each year is that
the vehicles themselves have been made so much safer. We have more
accidents than ever (due to rising population), but fatalities have remained
roughly level at around 50,000 per year. But is that because people have
gotten smarter? Nope...they're just as dumb as they've always been. We've
just engineered some of the risk out of driving.

Similar advancements have not made it to aviation, and of course there are a
variety of reasons that aviation accidents tend to involve higher forces
anyway (airplanes need airspeed to fly, helicopters don't glide very well,
especially if there's been some kind of severe mechanical failure, etc.).
But if the accident rate at Oshkosh, or in GA generally, reflects poorly on
pilots specifically, then it reflects poorly on humanity in general. Those
who look down upon all the people causing accidents forget just what kind of
animal a human is after all.

As long as humans exist, there will be a significant number of them finding
ways to kill themselves. Most of the time, those ways won't even be new and
unique or interesting in any way. They'll just be plain dumb.

Pete


  #2  
Old July 24th 06, 10:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Duniho
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Posts: 774
Default Oshkosh arrivals

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
[...]
Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6
deaths per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with
fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the
huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10
deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population.


Sorry...I misread the AOPA article I was looking at. 2000/year is the
accident rate, not the fatality rate. The fatalities are about a third in
number of the total accident rate.

Still...6 or 10 doesn't sound that out of line, especially when you consider
the high-risk environment (naturally, you will see a higher accident and
fatality rate in higher-risk environments, by definition).

In any case, I still hold to my assertion that no one should be surprised
that there are stupid pilots.


  #3  
Old July 25th 06, 12:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Kyle Boatright
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Posts: 578
Default Oshkosh arrivals


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
[...]
Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6
deaths per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so,
with fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given
the huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6
or 10 deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA
population.


Sorry...I misread the AOPA article I was looking at. 2000/year is the
accident rate, not the fatality rate. The fatalities are about a third in
number of the total accident rate.

Still...6 or 10 doesn't sound that out of line, especially when you
consider the high-risk environment (naturally, you will see a higher
accident and fatality rate in higher-risk environments, by definition).

In any case, I still hold to my assertion that no one should be surprised
that there are stupid pilots.


A couple of thoughts:

1) For the Saturday flyer, Oshkosh is one of few times each year when
s/he'll load up the airplane to the max, then have to fly the airplane well
in a tight pattern. This greatly increases the risk factor.

2) Beyond that, lots of aircraft arrive at the fly-in with legal CG's, but
loaded well aft of where the pilot is accustomed to flying the aircraft.

Both of these issues are proficiency related, and I'm not sure anyone but
Darwin can address that one.

Next, there is the idiot factor. I believe the FAA can address some of
this. For example, the person who flys the approach completely wrong,
doesn't follow the NOTAM, etc. Those folks should get pulled aside after
their hopefully safe arrival, and the FAA should politely make sure they
have their stuff together...
- Show me your copy of the NOTAM.
- Why didn't you follow the procedures?
- etc.

I'm not calling for this for the guy who bounces a landing, but for the
people who obviously don't have a clue, there should be some remedial action
taken.

KB


  #4  
Old July 25th 06, 03:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
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Posts: 3,953
Default Oshkosh arrivals

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:23:06 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in
::

A couple of thoughts:


3. The proportion of aircraft building airman who attend AirVenture
is much larger than the general population of pilots. While piloting
requires certain skills and knowledge, home building skills and
knowledge do not significantly contribute to good airmanship. I would
think it would be difficult to MASTER BOTH arts.



  #5  
Old July 25th 06, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Posts: 1,886
Default Oshkosh arrivals



Kyle Boatright wrote:


Next, there is the idiot factor. I believe the FAA can address some of
this. For example, the person who flys the approach completely wrong,
doesn't follow the NOTAM, etc. Those folks should get pulled aside after
their hopefully safe arrival, and the FAA should politely make sure they
have their stuff together...
- Show me your copy of the NOTAM.
- Why didn't you follow the procedures?
- etc.


I've never been to OSH, but based on what I've seen at other places the
FAA can't dream of having the manpower available to have a chat with
every pilot that screws up the arrival.


  #6  
Old July 26th 06, 02:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Viperdoc[_1_]
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Posts: 91
Default Oshkosh arrivals

Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a
Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong
place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the
arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have
the information, and was around 5 southwest.

The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures
to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes
don't actually occur.



  #7  
Old July 26th 06, 04:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Posts: 1,886
Default Oshkosh arrivals



Viperdoc wrote:

Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a
Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong
place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the
arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have
the information, and was around 5 southwest.

The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures
to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes
don't actually occur.


That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite
direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff
and fly the procedure."
  #8  
Old July 26th 06, 04:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Emily[_1_]
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Posts: 632
Default Oshkosh arrivals

Newps wrote:


Viperdoc wrote:

Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone
in a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in
the wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if
he had the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said
he did not have the information, and was around 5 southwest.

The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal
procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing
that more crashes don't actually occur.


That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite
direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff
and fly the procedure."


You have no idea how much I wish controllers at ADS would start doing
that. It's no Oshkosh, but for crying out loud, people, how hard is it
to a)comprehend the requirements for entering class D and b)learn to
read a map and figure out whether we are north or south of the airport?
  #9  
Old July 26th 06, 02:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Viperdoc[_3_]
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Posts: 167
Default Oshkosh arrivals

I agree with you- if I had been the controller I would have been sorely
tempted to tell the pilot to get an effing clue and go away until you had
some idea as to what was going on.The idiot tied up a lot of valuable radio
time with his "ah's, uh, I'm not so sure where I am, what do I do next, etc"

Perhaps this is why the OSH controllers are hand picked volunteers.

This reminds me of a time when I was flying at St. Augustine, before they
had a tower. They used multiple simultaneous intersecting runways, and
there was a lot of student training activity as well. Some guy was mumbling
on the CTAF about where he was "over the river" trying to land, blah, blah,
blah, Cessna blah, blah, blah, a 172 blah, blah, blah- you get the picture

.. I announced that I was entering the midfield downwind for another runway,
and he started going through 60 questions as to where I was, what color
airplane, the name of my firstborn, and other quesitons, tying up a lot of
airtime during a busy day.

I told him over the air maybe he should talk less and look out the window
instead.

One of my friends and aerobatic instructors who now works in a contract
tower but is retired from the FAA gave me some great advice, when I used to
read back every instruction: the less you say over the air, the less chance
of screwing something up. The only thing that you absolutely have to repeat
is a hold short instruction, the rest can be "roger", or "say again"

It seems to work pretty well so far.


"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Viperdoc wrote:

Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in
a Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the
wrong place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had
the arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not
have the information, and was around 5 southwest.

The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal
procedures to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that
more crashes don't actually occur.


That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite
direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff and
fly the procedure."



  #10  
Old July 28th 06, 07:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Roger[_4_]
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Posts: 677
Default Oshkosh arrivals

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:00:22 -0600, Newps wrote:



Viperdoc wrote:

Agree completely. Was listening to the live ATC broadcast, and someone in a
Canadian registered plane calls up and starts talking, also in the wrong
place and completely oblivious. The controller asked him if he had the
arrival notams and where exactly he was, but the guy said he did not have
the information, and was around 5 southwest.

The controller was a model of cool, and went through the normal procedures
to identify the guy and get him sequenced. It's amazing that more crashes
don't actually occur.


That's BS.. "Sir, turn around and fly at least 100 miles in the opposite
direction. Land. Get the notam. Study it and know it. Then takeoff
and fly the procedure."


Ahhh... I'd think the last thing I'd want to do it take some one who
has already proven themselves to be completely clueless turn around
and fly *toward* all those airplanes coming into Oshkosh. If he's 5
SW he's already in the dense traffic with far more coming toward him
than away.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 




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