Scared of mid-airs

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:01:50 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

Highflyer schrieb:

I've had thee close encounters since 1963. The last was nearly 10
years ago when landing.

The most dangerous near misses are those which you'll never know.

Near miss. No, I've never had one that almost missed me.
The closest was about a foot with the top of the tail of a Comanche
under my seat. Although that vertical stabilizer had to be closer to
that to the wheels on the old Piper Colt. He was flying the express
way low and I do mean low. He had to gain altitude for the overpass
and there we were on final for 36.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Stefan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Near miss. No, I've never had one that almost missed me.

That would be a "nearly miss". A near miss is a miss. A deep lake is a
lake. A red rose is a rose. A heavy rain is a rain.

A near miss is a miss.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

ATC has a box around each IFR airplane, no other airplane
should be in that box. The size of the box changes, but in
general [somebody will surely correct me] is 1,000 above and
below within a distance of from 5 to 20 miles. Anything
closer and it is a near-miss. When you are close enough to
see the individual rivets or make out the color of the other
pilot's eyes, it is also a near-miss.

{I know, loss of separation}



"Jose" wrote in message
...
| Near miss. No, I've never had one that almost missed me.
|
| That would be a "nearly miss". A near miss is a miss. A
deep lake is a
| lake. A red rose is a rose. A heavy rain is a rain.
|
| A near miss is a miss.
|
| Jose
| --
| The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the
music.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article 5Z2zg.84642$ZW3.6823@dukeread04,
"Jim Macklin" wrote:

ATC has a box around each IFR airplane, no other airplane
should be in that box. The size of the box changes, but in
general [somebody will surely correct me] is 1,000 above and
below within a distance of from 5 to 20 miles. Anything
closer and it is a near-miss. When you are close enough to
see the individual rivets or make out the color of the other
pilot's eyes, it is also a near-miss.

{I know, loss of separation}


The above posting is not correct. IFR planes have a unique box *only*
against other IFR traffic -- VFR traffic is not mentioned. That is why
you *have* to keep a lookout for traffic when you are under IFR.

An IFR may report a "near miss" when a VFR does not consider it to be a
threat. The "1000 above or below within 5 to 20 miles" applie only to
Class A airspace, *not* to B, C, D, etc.; else traffic flow would
trickle to a halt.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:


The above posting is not correct. IFR planes have a unique box *only*
against other IFR traffic -- VFR traffic is not mentioned. That is why
you *have* to keep a lookout for traffic when you are under IFR.

An IFR may report a "near miss" when a VFR does not consider it to be a
threat. The "1000 above or below within 5 to 20 miles" applie only to
Class A airspace, *not* to B, C, D, etc.; else traffic flow would
trickle to a halt.

That's the way I understand it. My closest encounter ever was while IFR
in VMC. My instructor said, "I have the airplane", and we went into a
steep dive. I pulled off the hood to see a Cessna pass over that we
would have hit head on. We complained to ATC and they showed no
interest. I did some reading and came to the conclusion that their
primary job is to keep IFR traffic separated. If they have time, then
yeah, they can and should route you around a storm cell or some VFR
traffic but those tasks are not their primary mission.

I'm sure any errors and omissions in the above will be taken care of by
folks more knowledgeable than I am in this area.

Tom

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

The above posting is not correct. IFR planes have a unique box *only*
against other IFR traffic -- VFR traffic is not mentioned. That is why
you *have* to keep a lookout for traffic when you are under IFR.


Er... what do you mean by "keep a lookout for traffic under IFR"?
Lookout on the radar, surely??

Ramapriya

If you're not in a cloud, you are required to look out the
windows.



wrote in message
oups.com...
| Orval Fairbairn wrote:
|
| The above posting is not correct. IFR planes have a
unique box *only*
| against other IFR traffic -- VFR traffic is not
mentioned. That is why
| you *have* to keep a lookout for traffic when you are
under IFR.
|
|
| Er... what do you mean by "keep a lookout for traffic
under IFR"?
| Lookout on the radar, surely??
|
| Ramapriya
|

On 07/30/06 22:22, wrote:
Orval Fairbairn wrote:

The above posting is not correct. IFR planes have a unique box *only*
against other IFR traffic -- VFR traffic is not mentioned. That is why
you *have* to keep a lookout for traffic when you are under IFR.


Er... what do you mean by "keep a lookout for traffic under IFR"?
Lookout on the radar, surely??

Ramapriya


You're confusing Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) with Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC). Regardless if the flight is IFR or VFR, when you are in
VMC, you must see and avoid other aircraft (and other flying things as well...)



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Er... what do you mean by "keep a lookout for traffic under IFR"?
Lookout on the radar, surely??

Nope. Traffic out the window.

In brief, "IFR" is a set of rules to fly by, which permits flying in the
clouds. "IMC" means weather in which one cannot see out the window.
Only IFR airplanes can fly in IMC.

"VMC" means weather in which you =can= see out the window. In that kind
of weather, you can still fly IFR (in fact, if you are in and out of
clouds, you will be in VMC and then in IMC and then back in VMC...).
However, other airplanes may be flying VFR (which is a different set of
rules to fly by). Under VFR (rules), the pilots look out the window and
avoid each other, since they can see.

The upshot is that under IFR (rules), air traffic controllers separate
other IFR traffic from you. They do not separate VFR traffic from you.

If you are in IMC (i.e. clouds) and can't see, there should be no VFR
traffic for you to avoid. If you are in VMC, then (like all other
pilots), you need to look out the window. But, since it's VMC, you can.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Thanks a lot, Jose and Jim; much appreciated

Ramapriya

Jose wrote:
Er... what do you mean by "keep a lookout for traffic under IFR"?
Lookout on the radar, surely??

Nope. Traffic out the window.

In brief, "IFR" is a set of rules to fly by, which permits flying in the
clouds. "IMC" means weather in which one cannot see out the window.
Only IFR airplanes can fly in IMC.

"VMC" means weather in which you =can= see out the window. In that kind
of weather, you can still fly IFR (in fact, if you are in and out of
clouds, you will be in VMC and then in IMC and then back in VMC...).
However, other airplanes may be flying VFR (which is a different set of
rules to fly by). Under VFR (rules), the pilots look out the window and
avoid each other, since they can see.

The upshot is that under IFR (rules), air traffic controllers separate
other IFR traffic from you. They do not separate VFR traffic from you.

If you are in IMC (i.e. clouds) and can't see, there should be no VFR
traffic for you to avoid. If you are in VMC, then (like all other
pilots), you need to look out the window. But, since it's VMC, you can.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.