Scared of mid-airs

On 07/31/06 11:08, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:39:09 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article ,
588 wrote:

Orval al wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

(snip)
Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes. It's a two-edged
sword, Larry.

IIRC, Ed, only in prohibited airspace can a mil pilot not expect to
encounter a civil VFR.

That is what we have restricted areas for -- not to be done in congested
airspace.


Which is it, Orv?


Both restricted and prohibited airspace are "sterile." Actually,
military aircraft also should not be in *prohibited* airspace, OTW, it
is *restricted* airspace.

MOAs, Warning areas and Oil Burner routes are joint use, so we can
expect anybody to be there legally.

MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military. MOAs that include airspace below
positive control can have VFR aircraft in transit. We used to get them
all the time in the Beak and Talon MOAs east of Holloman.

However, any airspace that permits VFR flight can have aircraft
transitting without ATC clearance in VMC. Aircraft operating under VFR
in VMC are responsible for their own clearance of their flight route.


Actually, *all* aircraft flying in VMC are responsible for "See and Avoid".
This includes aircraft operating under IFR.




Ed Rasimus


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:05:18 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 07/31/06 11:08, Ed Rasimus wrote:

However, any airspace that permits VFR flight can have aircraft
transitting without ATC clearance in VMC. Aircraft operating under VFR
in VMC are responsible for their own clearance of their flight route.


Actually, *all* aircraft flying in VMC are responsible for "See and Avoid".
This includes aircraft operating under IFR.


Very true. The caution we used to spend a lot of time impressing on
UPT students in the USAF was the idea that just because you are on an
IFR clearance is NO GUARANTEE that you are going to be provided safe
separation from traffic. Your clearance only clears you from other IFR
aircraft and then only when in controlled airspace. The VFR guy can
run into you at his own whim.

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time. High speed
aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of time to
look, but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

I had to dig up this old RAF Air Marshall quote: "Aviation in itself
is not inherently dangerous but like the sea, is terribly unforgiving
of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

We had it on the wall in pilot training years ago. I've also seen it
in 'chute shops over the door where you head out to the airplanes. And
in USAF Flying Safety Offices.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:49:59 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.

That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.

High speed aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of time to
look,

Low-speed aircraft have the same amount of time to spot a high-speed
aircraft before colliding with it as the high-speed aircraft has: the
amount of time it takes for the two aircraft to reach each other.
Pilots of high-speed aircraft must look much farther ahead than pilots
of low-speed aircraft..

but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

High-speed aircraft need only scan a much smaller angle of airspace in
front of them than slow speed aircraft.

Larry Dighera wrote:

Low-speed aircraft have the same amount of time to spot a high-speed
aircraft before colliding with it as the high-speed aircraft has: the
amount of time it takes for the two aircraft to reach each other.
Pilots of high-speed aircraft must look much farther ahead than pilots
of low-speed aircraft.


If the time is the same, so is the distance, Larry.

As long as you are obsessing, why not do it carefully?

Each of your statements above may be true under a limited set of
circumstances but untrue under many others. If you expect us to go
along on this rant-ride with you, then bother to care as much for
the truth which resides in the details as you claim to care for the
so-called victims of imagined crimes.


Jack

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:36:47 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:49:59 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.

That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.

No, even in IMC, if I am operating an aircraft with radar (or other
sensors) and I detect a threat of collision it would still be my
responsibility to deviate and avoid the collision, even without ATC
approval.

ATC is NOT magic. During the PATCO strike (Reagan years), when the
controllers walked off the job, we stood down at Holloman for two
days. At that point we could no longer suspend our training operations
and we resumed flying. We filed flight plans VFR/IFR with MARSA
(military assumes responsibility for separation of aircraft). In areas
that were not positive control, we remained VMC. In positive control
airspace, we proceeded IMC when necessary and used own radars and
military RAPCON coverage to deconflict--which really wasn't necessary
since no GA aircraft would be transiting in APC under IMC without
ATC--would they?

When controllers returned to work, they had learned that they were not
essential to our operations and we had a year or two of
non-interference from Big Brother as we went about our business. (Oh,
there were no mid-airs of any kind.)

High speed aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of time to
look,

Low-speed aircraft have the same amount of time to spot a high-speed
aircraft before colliding with it as the high-speed aircraft has: the
amount of time it takes for the two aircraft to reach each other.
Pilots of high-speed aircraft must look much farther ahead than pilots
of low-speed aircraft..

That's ludicrous. You can look as far ahead as I can. Both high speed
and low speed aviators have the same degree of visual acuity and the
same obligation to maintain the highest possible level of situational
awareness.

but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

High-speed aircraft need only scan a much smaller angle of airspace in
front of them than slow speed aircraft.

Bull**** again. In fact, we operate with greater responsibility for
look-out for mutual support than GA operators. That's the price of
being a weapon system. There are people out there trying to kill you.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.


That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.


IMC does not provide an exception.

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:14:24 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
t::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.


That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.


IMC does not provide an exception.


Considering that IMC is visibility less than three miles, I suppose
you are correct.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Considering that IMC is visibility less than three miles, I suppose
you are correct.


IMC is anything less than what is required for VFR flight. In Class E
airspace at 10,000 MSL or higher with less than five statute miles
visibility you're in IMC. In Class E airspace at 10,000 MSL or higher with
a cloud deck less than 1000' above or below you you're in IMC even if
visibility is unlimited.

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:06:04 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

Considering that IMC is visibility less than three miles, I suppose
you are correct.


IMC is anything less than what is required for VFR flight.

Agreed. I was speaking generally.

In Class E airspace at 10,000 MSL or higher with less than five statute miles
visibility you're in IMC. In Class E airspace at 10,000 MSL or higher with
a cloud deck less than 1000' above or below you you're in IMC even if
visibility is unlimited.


That's also true for Class G airspace at night at more than 1,200 feet
above the surface and at or above 10,000 feet MSL.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:49:59 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.

That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.

High speed aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of
time to
look,

Low-speed aircraft have the same amount of time to spot a high-speed
aircraft before colliding with it as the high-speed aircraft has: the
amount of time it takes for the two aircraft to reach each other.
Pilots of high-speed aircraft must look much farther ahead than pilots
of low-speed aircraft..

but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

High-speed aircraft need only scan a much smaller angle of airspace in
front of them than slow speed aircraft.



Just to jump in here for a second. Let's remember that most of the
high-speed fighters are painted in such a what as to make them hard to spot.