23 July OSH accident audio

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

Neither. You proceed from Ripon up the railroad tracks to a point about
500 yards east of the beach umbrella directly over the railroad tracks.

Not according to the Fisk VFR arrival procedure as published in the 2006
AirVenture NOTAM. Do you advocate ignoring the published procedure by all
pilots, or just those with 5000+ flight hours?

That is precisely the Fisk VFR arrival procedure. Ripon up the railroad
tracks to Fisk. Or what we CALL Fisk. Fisk itself is a small town about
half a mile to the north-northwest of the railroad tracks. The controller's
tent or umbrella is on a small knoll in the middle of a grassy field about
halfway between the railroad tracks and the town of Fisk. You stay over the
railroad tracks at the prescribed altitude and airspeed until advised by the
controllers in the tent which of the approach procedures to execute.

Over the railroad tracks at Fisk Avenue puts you almost exactly 500 yards
abeam the tent/umbrella on the knoll to your port side.




Have you ever flown the approach during the show?


No. Have you ever flown the approach as published during the show?

Every time. As my ancient memory recalls, the arrival procedures had their
genesis in the great post-airshow gaggle of 1976 (of which I was an
unwilling participant), but the Fisk procedure as we know it today took a
couple of years after that to work out. I do not remember what the
procedure was from '77 until Fisk was instituted, but this is the first year
since 1973 that I haven't flown myself into Oshkosh for the Show ... in
strict compliance with the NOTAM as published.

Dave Yeoman (Marion, IA) sells cassette tapes of that '76 afternoon gaggle;
you may want to listen for the "red and white Cessna taildragger" in that
tape.

Somebody with a better memory than mine may wish to correct me on the year
of the Great Gaggle.

Jim

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

That is precisely the Fisk VFR arrival procedure. Ripon up the railroad
tracks to Fisk.


You're contradicting yourself. When I asked if you proceed from Ripon to
Fisk, or from Ripon to beach umbrella you said; "Neither. You proceed from
Ripon up the railroad tracks to a point about 500 yards east of the beach
umbrella directly over the railroad tracks."



Or what we CALL Fisk. Fisk itself is a small town about half a mile to
the north-northwest of the railroad tracks.


Fisk is south of the railroad track.



The controller's tent or umbrella is on a small knoll in the middle of a
grassy field about halfway between the railroad tracks and the town of
Fisk. You stay over the railroad tracks at the prescribed altitude and
airspeed until advised by the controllers in the tent which of the
approach procedures to execute.

Over the railroad tracks at Fisk Avenue puts you almost exactly 500 yards
abeam the tent/umbrella on the knoll to your port side.


So what?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...


You're contradicting yourself. When I asked if you proceed from Ripon to
Fisk, or from Ripon to beach umbrella you said; "Neither. You proceed
from Ripon up the railroad tracks to a point about 500 yards east of the
beach umbrella directly over the railroad tracks."

Not if you read it correctly. You do not proceed to either the beach
umbrella nor to the town of "Fisk" nor to FISKE, however you wish to define
it. You proceed up the railroad tracks to what we commonly call "Fisk",
which is 500 yards east of the beach umbrella and directly over the railroad
tracks. You do NOT deviate from the railroad tracks until given persimmon
to do so.






Or what we CALL Fisk. Fisk itself is a small town about half a mile to
the north-northwest of the railroad tracks.


Fisk is south of the railroad track.

You are correct. My memory was when we drove out to see it in February a
couple of years ago. The "business district" (both of them) is about a mile
north-northwest of Highway 44, not a mile north of the tracks. My bad.



The controller's tent or umbrella is on a small knoll in the middle of a
grassy field about halfway between the railroad tracks and the town of
Fisk. You stay over the railroad tracks at the prescribed altitude and
airspeed until advised by the controllers in the tent which of the
approach procedures to execute.

Over the railroad tracks at Fisk Avenue puts you almost exactly 500 yards
abeam the tent/umbrella on the knoll to your port side.


So what?

So what I said on my first pass at this.

Jim

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Steven,


When aircraft are instructed to hold they're supposed to be issued a time
when they can proceed beyond the holding point. ATC obviously couldn't know
how long the airport would be closed, but they did know why it was closed
and issuing that information would have given pilots an idea how long the
delay would be.


So the pilots would have known what the controllers didn't? How?


Really professional controllers do these things not just
because they're required, but also because it's good procedure.


To imply that the OSH controllers are anything but professional is ridiculous.


How extensive is your ATC experience?

Matt

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Jose,


So pilots can evaluate their bag of alternate plans with an eye to which
would be more appropriate.



Ok, let's assume the controller knows there's an accident AND they have the
time and free mind capacity to say it on the frequency. Then what? For that
info to be useful, you'd have to know how long it's going to take to clear
up. I'd wager the controllers did not know that.

The point is that now the pilots would also know that ATC didn't know,
but they could also surmise that it would be quite some time given the
circumstances. Many likely would have found an alternate thus relieving
some of the congestion.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

To imply that the OSH controllers are anything but professional is
ridiculous.

How extensive is your ATC experience?

Would you describe the ATC at Oskosh as "amateur," "hobbyist," "student,"
"volunteer", "ad hoc"...

-c

Yes, you could tell the guys flying the GPS straight line rather than staying over the tracks...


"RST Engineering" wrote in message ...
: That may well be, but Fisk has strobes, controllers under a beach umbrella,
: railroad tracks, and grass. You proceed from Ripon to Fisk, not from RIPON
: to FISKE.
:
: Jim
:
:
:
: "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
: nk.net...
:
: "RST Engineering" wrote in message
: ...
:
: Just for my nosiness, why are we calling Fisk Fiske now?
:
:
: FISKE is 6 DME from OSH on the 247 radial.
:
:
:

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
...

Dave Yeoman (Marion, IA) sells cassette tapes of that '76 afternoon
gaggle; you may want to listen for the "red and white Cessna taildragger"
in that tape.

Somebody with a better memory than mine may wish to correct me on the year
of the Great Gaggle.

Jim

You were in that line? Cool. I got to watch it from the ground - Aircraft
lined up as far as the eye could see - a real show!

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

gatt wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...


To imply that the OSH controllers are anything but professional is
ridiculous.


How extensive is your ATC experience?


Would you describe the ATC at Oskosh as "amateur," "hobbyist," "student,"
"volunteer", "ad hoc"...

I'm not an ATC specialist so I'm not in as good a position to judge as
is Steven, since he is an ATC professional. It certainly sounds like
they were deficient during the incident under discussion. I likely
wouldn't describe them as you have above in general, but it sounds like
they had a temporary lapse in judgement.


Matt

In article ,
"RST Engineering" wrote:

That may well be, but Fisk has strobes

Make that "strobe" (singular).