Scared of mid-airs

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:59:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

With regard to low-level MTRs, isn't the ceiling 500' AGL to 1,500'
AGL? Why not just fly over top of the proposed MTR restricted
airspace? If that approach should happen to interfere with
navigation, then the pilot would do what he always does to enter R
airspace: Contact ATC. I don't see the problem you apparently do.
What am I overlooking?


That contacting ATC doesn't mean you'll be cleared to enter a Restricted
Area.


True. Wouldn't you presume, that any denial of access into R airspace
would be predicated on the fact that there is training activity
occurring with in that R airspace (it's hot)? If so, it probably
wouldn't be a good idea to enter that MTR at that time even if it
remained joint use. Right?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

True. Wouldn't you presume, that any denial of access into R airspace
would be predicated on the fact that there is training activity
occurring with in that R airspace (it's hot)? If so, it probably
wouldn't be a good idea to enter that MTR at that time even if it
remained joint use. Right?


Right. Given that one does not need permission to enter when it isn't hot,
what was your point?

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:01:59 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

True. Wouldn't you presume, that any denial of access into R airspace
would be predicated on the fact that there is training activity
occurring with in that R airspace (it's hot)? If so, it probably
wouldn't be a good idea to enter that MTR at that time even if it
remained joint use. Right?


Right. Given that one does not need permission to enter when it isn't hot,
what was your point?


So you're saying ATC doesn't grant permission to enter R airspace, and
it is up to the pilot to enter or not based on ATC's information
regarding scheduled activity within it? There's no _clearance_
involved then?

Given:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0304.html#3-4-3
Section 4. Special Use Airspace
3-4-3. Restricted Areas
Penetration of restricted areas without authorization from the
using or controlling agency may be extremely hazardous to the
aircraft and its occupants.

It would seem that a pilot would require authorization from the
controlling agency (usually ATC) if not a clearance.

Unfortunately, I don't find 'authorization' contained in the
Pilot/Controller Glossary: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/A.HTM

What form would that authorization take?


[Clearance is contained in the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for
the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an
aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within
controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not
deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or
instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an
emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained.
Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from
that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if
information available to the pilot makes another course of action
more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company
procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may
also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time
a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable
because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances
and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor
the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in
command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the
final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT
IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a
clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or
regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in
jeopardy.

It would seem, that a clearance is only applicable in within
controlled airspace, of which R airspace may or may not be, right?]

Larry Dighera wrote:

So you're saying ATC doesn't grant permission to enter R airspace, and
it is up to the pilot to enter or not based on ATC's information
regarding scheduled activity within it? There's no _clearance_
involved then?


I'm saying ATC doesn't grant permission to enter Restricted Areas when
they're not hot. Have you ever asked ATC for permission to enter a
Restricred Area you knew to be inactive? If so, why?



Given:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0304.html#3-4-3
Section 4. Special Use Airspace
3-4-3. Restricted Areas
Penetration of restricted areas without authorization from the
using or controlling agency may be extremely hazardous to the
aircraft and its occupants.

It would seem that a pilot would require authorization from the
controlling agency (usually ATC) if not a clearance.


It would seem that paragraph refers to a Restricted Area that is hot.