Scared of mid-airs

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:42:07 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:02:22 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

then the pilot would do what he always does to enter R
airspace: Contact ATC.

I've attempted that, and also contacting the FSS as printed on the
charts themselves, and often the putative controlling agency doesn't
know whether it's hot or not.

That is true. Why do you suppose that occurs?

Do you think ATC is so disorganized, that they can't find the military
activity information, or do you think the military has provided
ambiguous information, what? It would seem, that given the system in
place for activating and deactivating Restricted airspace, there
should be a concrete answer available at all times.

Could it be a level of operational intensity that makes
minute-by-minute update impractical?

Example:

Holloman AFB operating four squadrons (32 airplanes each) conducting
Fighter Lead-In Training for recent graduates of Undergraduate Pilot
Training enroute to fighter assignments. Average of 120 sorties per
day ranging from single ship to two, three and four ship flights. Also
second fighter wing with three more squadrons of 18 aircraft each
conducting complex operations coordinated with ground radar
environments and often requiring supersonic airspace.

Schedule published twelve hours before operations commence. Airspace
activated as scheduled, but morning fog precludes launches. Delays of
thirty minutes--should airspace be turned back? Launch when weather
allows and airspace is hot. Schedule is both slipped and compressed to
keep training flow and meet required completions dates.

Flight aborts because of maintenance problems. Beak B is now empty but
A and C remain "hot". Should GA aircraft be cleared through B or
should airspace remain blocked for fifteen minute late launch of
flight? Scheduled A/G mission cancelled because of unavailability of
properly configured aircraft. Add-on to schedule with available
aircraft to fly A/A sortie. Schedule flexes again.

Afternoon weather builds up in Talon N, so unscheduled Beak C takes
additional sorties from Talon N.

And on and on.

Conversely, Saturday and Sunday no scheduled training, so airspace is
released. Maintenance requires a block for a functional check flight
on a repaired airplane. Flexibility to allow delay waiting for ATC to
clear GA aircraft out of the block is no problem. Life goes on.

Isn't that different than your innuendo laden language above?
"ATC is so disorganized..." "military information is so ambiguous..."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:51:37 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:42:07 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:02:22 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

then the pilot would do what he always does to enter R
airspace: Contact ATC.

I've attempted that, and also contacting the FSS as printed on the
charts themselves, and often the putative controlling agency doesn't
know whether it's hot or not.

That is true. Why do you suppose that occurs?

Do you think ATC is so disorganized, that they can't find the military
activity information, or do you think the military has provided
ambiguous information, what? It would seem, that given the system in
place for activating and deactivating Restricted airspace, there
should be a concrete answer available at all times.

Could it be a level of operational intensity that makes
minute-by-minute update impractical?

Example:

Holloman AFB operating four squadrons (32 airplanes each) conducting
Fighter Lead-In Training for recent graduates of Undergraduate Pilot
Training enroute to fighter assignments. Average of 120 sorties per
day ranging from single ship to two, three and four ship flights. Also
second fighter wing with three more squadrons of 18 aircraft each
conducting complex operations coordinated with ground radar
environments and often requiring supersonic airspace.

Schedule published twelve hours before operations commence. Airspace
activated as scheduled, but morning fog precludes launches. Delays of
thirty minutes--should airspace be turned back? Launch when weather
allows and airspace is hot. Schedule is both slipped and compressed to
keep training flow and meet required completions dates.

Flight aborts because of maintenance problems. Beak B is now empty but
A and C remain "hot". Should GA aircraft be cleared through B or
should airspace remain blocked for fifteen minute late launch of
flight? Scheduled A/G mission cancelled because of unavailability of
properly configured aircraft. Add-on to schedule with available
aircraft to fly A/A sortie. Schedule flexes again.

Afternoon weather builds up in Talon N, so unscheduled Beak C takes
additional sorties from Talon N.

And on and on.

Conversely, Saturday and Sunday no scheduled training, so airspace is
released. Maintenance requires a block for a functional check flight
on a repaired airplane. Flexibility to allow delay waiting for ATC to
clear GA aircraft out of the block is no problem. Life goes on.

Isn't that different than your innuendo laden language above?
"ATC is so disorganized..." "military information is so ambiguous..."

Sir, the information you provided does not explain how ATC would not
be aware if the R airspace were hot or not. If the military scheduled
the airspace, ATC should assume it is hot, right?

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:37:24 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


Sir, the information you provided does not explain how ATC would not
be aware if the R airspace were hot or not. If the military scheduled
the airspace, ATC should assume it is hot, right?

Yes, if the military scheduled the airspace, ATC should assume it is
hot. If they wish to make sure, they should check their controllers
and see if anybody was coming or going. IOW, if scheduled it is "Hot"
and even if not active at this minute, one should assume that it will
be active momentarily. You won't get clearance through the airspace
under those conditions.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:

[stuff snipped]

Schedule published twelve hours before operations commence. Airspace
activated as scheduled, but morning fog precludes launches. Delays of
thirty minutes--should airspace be turned back? Launch when weather
allows and airspace is hot. Schedule is both slipped and compressed to
keep training flow and meet required completions dates.

Flight aborts because of maintenance problems. Beak B is now empty but
A and C remain "hot". Should GA aircraft be cleared through B or
should airspace remain blocked for fifteen minute late launch of
flight? Scheduled A/G mission cancelled because of unavailability of
properly configured aircraft. Add-on to schedule with available
aircraft to fly A/A sortie. Schedule flexes again.


In your experience in the USAF who did the actual coordination with the
FAA? In my experience it was a group at a numbered AF HQ, and the time
it took for unit-level schedule changes to make it up to the HQ and hit
the FAA caused a long delay,
with the flying unit assuming that the airspace coordination had been
done when it may or may not have actually occurred, which resulted in
aircraft on MTRs that supposedly were cold, unanticipated arrivals on
ranges, multiple units using the same MTR, etc.
We kept track of specific flight schedules via the frag orders, which
sometimes matched reality and sometimes not. We had a continual
problem with weekend use of MTRs when schedules changed but the USAF
had nobody on duty on Saturday/Sunday coordinating with the FAA in the
region where I worked.


John Hairell )

On 3 Aug 2006 12:40:33 -0700, "
wrote:


In your experience in the USAF who did the actual coordination with the
FAA? In my experience it was a group at a numbered AF HQ, and the time
it took for unit-level schedule changes to make it up to the HQ and hit
the FAA caused a long delay,
with the flying unit assuming that the airspace coordination had been
done when it may or may not have actually occurred, which resulted in
aircraft on MTRs that supposedly were cold, unanticipated arrivals on
ranges, multiple units using the same MTR, etc.

It would vary with the unit and the mission. Typically the airspace
for training was local to the base--i.e. Holloman airspace was theirs
and not shared for example with Cannon. Nellis airspace belonged to
Nellis and George airspace belonged to George.

Very little went through numbered AF. Coordination of daily schedules
and airspace requirements would flow from the Wing to the ARTCC.

Ranges were controlled by the military.

MTRs could be used by multiple units although a majority of the routes
that I saw were base dedicated. Some could be used by other bases and
that was coordinated between the bases and ARTCC. There was no such
thing as an "unanticipated arrival on ranges"--you had a scheduled
range time before takeoff. If you didn't have scheduled range time you
didn't go.

We kept track of specific flight schedules via the frag orders, which
sometimes matched reality and sometimes not.

Frag orders are "frag"ments of the total operations order. This is a
real operations term, not a training document. You get a frag at a
unit in combat. It is part of the total operations plan for the day
generated at the component command Hq level. It, by defnition, IS
reality.

We had a continual
problem with weekend use of MTRs when schedules changed but the USAF
had nobody on duty on Saturday/Sunday coordinating with the FAA in the
region where I worked.

From the time I entered active duty (which was 1964) I was never at an
installation that did not have a command post which operated 24/7.
Even units which did not conduct operations on weekends had such a
function. In those days the point-of-contact was the "airdrome
officer" who typically was located in base operations. There was
always someone on duty.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com