Scared of mid-airs

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 00:27:47 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

Every flight, every day, by the military is on a flight plan.


Even those flights on VFR MTRs?


Yes.


Then why are there IFR MTRs and VFR MTRs?


Are there IFR and VFR flight plans?


Yes, but our resident fighter pilot asserts:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:

Regardless, the flight plan type for the military is IFR.

If that were true, it prompts my questioning the need for VFR MTRs.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...


Are there IFR and VFR flight plans?


Yes, but our resident fighter pilot asserts:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:

Regardless, the flight plan type for the military is IFR.

If that were true, it prompts my questioning the need for VFR MTRs.


But he wrote that in response to your question. So what prompted you to ask
it?

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:49:53 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .


Are there IFR and VFR flight plans?


Yes, but our resident fighter pilot asserts:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:

Regardless, the flight plan type for the military is IFR.

If that were true, it prompts my questioning the need for VFR MTRs.


But he wrote that in response to your question. So what prompted you to ask
it?


It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:32:18 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:49:53 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
.net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
. ..


Are there IFR and VFR flight plans?


Yes, but our resident fighter pilot asserts:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:

Regardless, the flight plan type for the military is IFR.

If that were true, it prompts my questioning the need for VFR MTRs.


But he wrote that in response to your question. So what prompted you to ask
it?


It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.

The military can and does operated on VFR routes, but they are still
on an IFR flight plan.

Why would you doubt my "assertion"? Do you have any military aviation
experience? Would I lie to you?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:17:30 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
:


If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.

The military can and does operated on VFR routes, but they are still
on an IFR flight plan.

Okay. That's reasonable, if non intuitive.

Why would you doubt my "assertion"?

Surely you must agree, that are all fellable, even you.

Do you have any military aviation experience?

I got caught at 500' over the approach end of George AFB in a glider
once in the '70s.* :-) I'm not proud of it, but we all make
mistakes. Some are more grievous than others. Unfortunately, my
choices were between landing among the Joshua Trees or on a runway.
Fortunately, the tower personnel were generous.

Would I lie to you?

Lacking any historic evidence that might support that notion, I am
comfortable giving you the benefit of the doubt initially extended to
all.

*
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=source&hl=en

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.


Let's cut this short. There are VFR flight plans and the military operates
VFR on VFR MTRs.

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:20:04 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.


Let's cut this short. There are VFR flight plans and the military operates
VFR on VFR MTRs.


So you're contradicting Mr. Rasimus' assertion that the military only
flies IFR flight plans?

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:20:04 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
. ..

It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.


Let's cut this short. There are VFR flight plans and the military operates
VFR on VFR MTRs.



So you're contradicting Mr. Rasimus' assertion that the military only
flies IFR flight plans?


Ed was incorrect- the military does fly at least some missions under
IFR. MOST missions, however, are filed and flown under VFR, and indeed
the regulations state that IFR will be used to the maximum extent
possible without impacting mission requirements. When I say most,
I mean more than probably 90% of military missions are flown IFR. The
only time I've been VFR in the past 3 years in the CONUS is when I'm in
the traffic pattern at an airfield where they don't offer continuous
IFR services. Even in those cases, an IFR flight plan was filed for
the flight.

Mike

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:23:01 GMT, Mike Williamson
wrote in
t:

the regulations state that IFR will be used to the maximum extent
possible without impacting mission requirements.

That's the way I understood it to be also.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:23:01 GMT, Mike Williamson
wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:20:04 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

It was largely rhetorical.

If Mr. Rasimus' assertion, that the flight plan type for the military
is IFR is correct, and MTRs are created for military use, why are
there VFR MTRs? Presumably the military won't be operating VFR on VFR
MTRs.


Let's cut this short. There are VFR flight plans and the military operates
VFR on VFR MTRs.



So you're contradicting Mr. Rasimus' assertion that the military only
flies IFR flight plans?


Ed was incorrect- the military does fly at least some missions under
IFR. MOST missions, however, are filed and flown under VFR, and indeed
the regulations state that IFR will be used to the maximum extent
possible without impacting mission requirements. When I say most,
I mean more than probably 90% of military missions are flown IFR. The
only time I've been VFR in the past 3 years in the CONUS is when I'm in
the traffic pattern at an airfield where they don't offer continuous
IFR services. Even in those cases, an IFR flight plan was filed for
the flight.

Mike

MIke,

Without getting into quibbling, let me note that your last sentence
supports what I said in the first post and pretty much makes your
first comment regarding my correctness invalid.

In the tactical community (and the UPT training environment as well),
the IFR flight plan is always filed and the VFR portions are conducted
as a delay enroute. The aircrew involved on local sorties usually does
not handle the flight plan at all, but simply "signs out" with crew
and tail number and call-sign. The "canned flight plan" was filed with
ATC with the day's schedule. It is, however, an IFR flight plan.

Long ago (in a galaxy...) we used to take T-37s on X-country flights
VFR on VFR flight plans. I did it so regularly that I could pretty
much find my way from Willy to Nellis without a map. But, that sort of
flexibility went away and with VERY RARE exceptions, the flights are
always going to be on an IFR flight plan.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com