cloud flying regulations

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

This is all classic FAR regulation reading, and I don't
disagree, but there is still risk that the FAA will consider
flight in Class G in IMC to be careless or reckless. They
have done it at least once.

I would be curious to know the rest of the story of that particular
violation. I would expect that the pilot in question did something
else, besides flying a glider in less than minimum VFR conditions in
uncontrolled airspace, to warrant FAA action. After all, people fly
airplanes IFR in Class G airspace every day!

Careless or reckless? Many people think that all glider pilots are
crazy. "Flying without an engine? You're nuts!" My local FAA ATC
safety officer said that. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy! My
point is that 'careless and reckless' is relative. Contest finishes,
rope drops, thermalling 400 feet AGL and two dozen gliders maneuvering
for best position in a tight gaggle ... all could be argued as careless
or reckless. For us, each is an every day event. For a transient GA
pilot, however, each would be shocking.


By commenting on a possible waiver/LOA option I certainly
wasn't denying that a block clearance was legal, I was just
looking at other options that might work for cloud flying in
gliders. To get a block clearance you'll have to convince
ATC, who may know nothing about gliders or glider IFR regs
to issue it, and while legal, it's probably something
they've never done. I'm interested in who's actually done
this and what their experience was. I would think an
initial sit-down with ATC would probably be helpful.

I absolutley agree on all counts. Our club has an annual safety
meeting with our local ATC to help us better understand each other's
operations and concerns.

In El Paso, we have a perfect mountain wave generator (the Franklin
Mountains) just six miles upwind of the El Paso International Airport.
I asked them to move their airport so that I could climb unobstructed
in the wave, but they said no. So, I have to climb in the secondary
wave (which usually sits on the final approach fix for their primary
runway when the wind favors mountain waves) to 17,000 feet, then I
transition to the primary wave that sits about two miles west of the
airport. While I maintain VFR, ATC blocks off a three-dimensional box
of airspace for me to play. Obviously, everything is on a
workload-permitting basis, but I have been batting better than 600 on
getting clearances through their airspace. Getting the transponder
waiver is a non-event.

My motivation for starting this thread is to be able to climb into
Class A airspace. I'm taking delivery of a new D2 this winter, and
getting it certified for IFR would cost the same as getting a VFR-only
limitation on my experimental airworthiness certificate. Hence, I am
still trying to find an FAR that requires more than just the "turn &
bank indicator with slip ball" to get a glider certified IFR.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

Can ATC see you without a transponder?

Mike Schumann

"Fox Two" wrote in message
oups.com...

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

This is all classic FAR regulation reading, and I don't
disagree, but there is still risk that the FAA will consider
flight in Class G in IMC to be careless or reckless. They
have done it at least once.

I would be curious to know the rest of the story of that particular
violation. I would expect that the pilot in question did something
else, besides flying a glider in less than minimum VFR conditions in
uncontrolled airspace, to warrant FAA action. After all, people fly
airplanes IFR in Class G airspace every day!

Careless or reckless? Many people think that all glider pilots are
crazy. "Flying without an engine? You're nuts!" My local FAA ATC
safety officer said that. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy! My
point is that 'careless and reckless' is relative. Contest finishes,
rope drops, thermalling 400 feet AGL and two dozen gliders maneuvering
for best position in a tight gaggle ... all could be argued as careless
or reckless. For us, each is an every day event. For a transient GA
pilot, however, each would be shocking.


By commenting on a possible waiver/LOA option I certainly
wasn't denying that a block clearance was legal, I was just
looking at other options that might work for cloud flying in
gliders. To get a block clearance you'll have to convince
ATC, who may know nothing about gliders or glider IFR regs
to issue it, and while legal, it's probably something
they've never done. I'm interested in who's actually done
this and what their experience was. I would think an
initial sit-down with ATC would probably be helpful.

I absolutley agree on all counts. Our club has an annual safety
meeting with our local ATC to help us better understand each other's
operations and concerns.

In El Paso, we have a perfect mountain wave generator (the Franklin
Mountains) just six miles upwind of the El Paso International Airport.
I asked them to move their airport so that I could climb unobstructed
in the wave, but they said no. So, I have to climb in the secondary
wave (which usually sits on the final approach fix for their primary
runway when the wind favors mountain waves) to 17,000 feet, then I
transition to the primary wave that sits about two miles west of the
airport. While I maintain VFR, ATC blocks off a three-dimensional box
of airspace for me to play. Obviously, everything is on a
workload-permitting basis, but I have been batting better than 600 on
getting clearances through their airspace. Getting the transponder
waiver is a non-event.

My motivation for starting this thread is to be able to climb into
Class A airspace. I'm taking delivery of a new D2 this winter, and
getting it certified for IFR would cost the same as getting a VFR-only
limitation on my experimental airworthiness certificate. Hence, I am
still trying to find an FAR that requires more than just the "turn &
bank indicator with slip ball" to get a glider certified IFR.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

Mike Schumann wrote:
Can ATC see you without a transponder?

Mike Schumann

Sometimes. In a non-transponder equipped glider, ATC can usually see
your primary radar return if your groundspeed is above 60 knots (this
depends on several factors). When my groundspeed decreases
significantly (common when climbing in mountain wave), ATC usually
informs me that they have lost radar contact, and ask me for a position
update.

I almost received a waiver from ATC to climb VFR above FL180 once, but
a supervisor stepped in at the last minute and denied my request.
Gliders are not exempt from having transponders in Class A airspace; I
don't think he had a problem with the VFR waiver.

Interesting stuff.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

Fox Two wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
Can ATC see you without a transponder?

Mike Schumann

Sometimes. In a non-transponder equipped glider, ATC can usually see
your primary radar return if your groundspeed is above 60 knots (this
depends on several factors). When my groundspeed decreases
significantly (common when climbing in mountain wave), ATC usually
informs me that they have lost radar contact, and ask me for a position
update.

I almost received a waiver from ATC to climb VFR above FL180 once, but
a supervisor stepped in at the last minute and denied my request.
Gliders are not exempt from having transponders in Class A airspace; I
don't think he had a problem with the VFR waiver.

Interesting stuff.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas
I'm told some soaring pilots operating locally request discrete
transponder codes and receive flight following and are offered climbs
and cruise blocks above FL180 occassionally. Useful when cloud base
may exceed FL240. This may be more common in California/Nevada due to
long time agreements and experience. A former partner of mine once
wrote up an article for the PASCO newsletter about blocking FL220-260?
and cruising about 115miles from Truckee to Mt Whitney without turning.
I don't think he was transponder equipped for that flight.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

Frank Whiteley wrote:

I'm told some soaring pilots operating locally request discrete
transponder codes and receive flight following and are offered climbs
and cruise blocks above FL180 occassionally. Useful when cloud base
may exceed FL240. This may be more common in California/Nevada due to
long time agreements and experience. A former partner of mine once
wrote up an article for the PASCO newsletter about blocking FL220-260?
and cruising about 115miles from Truckee to Mt Whitney without turning.
I don't think he was transponder equipped for that flight.


Hi Frank,

That's exciting stuff, and encouraging! I would be interested in
reading that article if you can find it.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas