GA airport in Paris

Cub Driver wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg"
wrote:

I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if anyone
could hear my transmission.

Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
addressed a local in French, he replied in English.

More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
in French.

It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
understood your transmission than would be the case for a
French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.

It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
French is the superior language for all purposes.

(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
don't know the other guy's language.)

Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being 'arrogant'
or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would be
going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking that
your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even if
they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language and
find that out for yourself.

In article , Owen wrote:

Cub Driver wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg"
wrote:

I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
anyone
could hear my transmission.

Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
addressed a local in French, he replied in English.

More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
in French.

It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
understood your transmission than would be the case for a
French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.

It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
French is the superior language for all purposes.

(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
don't know the other guy's language.)

Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
'arrogant'
or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
be
going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
that
your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
if
they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
and
find that out for yourself.

Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
learn English to get their license?

On 2006-08-09 15:29, john smith wrote:
In article , Owen wrote:


Cub Driver wrote:


On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg"
wrote:


I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
anyone
could hear my transmission.

Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
addressed a local in French, he replied in English.

More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
in French.

It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
understood your transmission than would be the case for a
French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.

It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
French is the superior language for all purposes.

(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
don't know the other guy's language.)

Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
'arrogant'
or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
be
going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
that
your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
if
they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
and
find that out for yourself.


Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
learn English to get their license?

In Sweden, english radio proficiency for *pilots* is an option; you can
select swedish only, but you cannot then fly outside sweden without a
copilot having the english radio certificate doing the comms.

I'd think most pilots here have the english radio cert, but it's not
required.

Controllers do have the english radio certificate as a requirement, AFAIK.

/Rolf

john smith wrote:

In article , Owen wrote:

Cub Driver wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg"
wrote:

I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
anyone
could hear my transmission.

Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
addressed a local in French, he replied in English.

More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
in French.

It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
understood your transmission than would be the case for a
French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.

It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
French is the superior language for all purposes.

(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
don't know the other guy's language.)

Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
'arrogant'
or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
be
going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
that
your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
if
they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
and
find that out for yourself.

Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
learn English to get their license?

Depends what you mean by 'other countries.' Many countries predominantly do not
speak English and naturally English is not required to fly airplanes in many
countries. In the USA, FAA does require US certificated pilots know English, and
pilots from other places should be able to speak the dominant language in USA,
English. English is theoretically spoken by ATC around the world in ICAO compliant
nations.

Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
learn English to get their license?

Depends what you mean by 'other countries.' Many countries predominantly do
not
speak English and naturally English is not required to fly airplanes in many
countries. In the USA, FAA does require US certificated pilots know English,
and pilots from other places should be able to speak the dominant language in
USA, English. English is theoretically spoken by ATC around the world in ICAO
compliant nations.

Thank you Rolf and Owen.
I learned something today.
I had always (incorrectly) believed that English proficiency was
required by all countries to acquire a pilot's license.

Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different

I think this is not about arrogance at all. I've been learning
foreign languages all my life, and spent decent amount of time
living in France. My overall impression is that an average 20-40
year old person that has some kind of higher education can communicate
in English on a level that is sufficient for a basic everyday
information exchange. Yes, far from perfect, but sufficient.

The problem I believe is in a typical French perfectionism: people are
so disgusted and embarrassed by their own self-perceived poor performance
that speaking English becomes a dreadful ordeal.

Not willing to do this for you in a shop or in a post office is one thing,
but ignoring you on the air is completely different. In aviation, communication
is vital, and I believe that not willing to go a little bit out of your way
to help the other guy hoping that someone else might do it, or just simply
ignoring the situation as a nuisance, is not acceptable.

This may be a little far-fetched analogy, but imagine hearing some
really really thick Asian or German accent -- barely intelligible -- on
the air here in the States. Would you -- even for a moment -- consider
ignoring the guy simply on the grounds that you'd find it very annoying
trying to figure out what he's saying, and you will probably have to repeat
yourself a few times before he understands your reply?

So, in essence, my point is: responding to communications is not about
courtesy or doing a favor; it's about safety, and the only legitimate
reason for not doing it would be if you can't, i.e. genuinely do not
understand the transmission at all.



Andrey

Andrey Serbinenko schrieb:

The problem I believe is in a typical French perfectionism: people are
so disgusted and embarrassed by their own self-perceived poor performance
that speaking English becomes a dreadful ordeal.

They rather are disgusted by people walking in and boldly starting to
chatter English and expecting everybody to understand them. It often
helps a lot if you start by modestly asking whether somebody understands
English.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:

They rather are disgusted by people walking in and boldly starting to
chatter English and expecting everybody to understand them. It often
helps a lot if you start by modestly asking whether somebody understands
English.

Right. My comment was made under assumption that all normal requirements for
politeness and civility have been satisfied. So, factoring in what you've
just said, I can rephrase it: even though you're starting out by modestly
asking if somebody understands English, in many cases you'll find that people
are being reluctant admitting their English abilities in an attempt to avoid
having to communicate with you in English and show their bad pronunciation and
grammar mistakes, and if you leave them no other choice, they can be quite
irritated, and much less helpful than you could expect had you spoken their
native language.

Andrey



Stefan

Andrey Serbinenko schrieb:

in many cases you'll find that people
are being reluctant admitting their English abilities in an attempt to avoid
having to communicate with you in English and show their bad pronunciation and

I don't think this is the reason. My feeling always was that some people
just wanted to be left alone, using the language problem as an excuse,
which they can't if you speak their language, but maybe I was totally wrong.

Stefan