Removing Ethanol from Gas?

Jay Honeck wrote:
We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

I don't think there's nearly enough ethanol manufacturing capacity to
do a nation wide mix of E10. That's a huge amount of ethanol to be
made from corn or other plants, plus the cost and the energy in
distillation.

On 9 Aug 2006 11:27:58 -0700, "M" wrote in
.com:

That's a huge amount of ethanol to be made from corn or other
plants, plus the cost and the energy in distillation.

You forgot to mention the cost of growing the corn.

Ethanol production requires:

Land
Farm equipment for planting, irrigating and harvesting
Fuel for the farm equipment
Irrigation water
Fertilizers
Insecticides
Distillation equipment
Fuel for the still
Water for fermentation (CO2 byproduct)
Labor, labor, labor

So, if all the costs are factored in, Ethanol is probably more
expensive than gasoline.

But the farm lobby is happy.

The next generation of photovoltaic equipment may be the ultimate
answer to energy the shortage. With solar there are no moving parts,
nor nuclear radiation emissions, nor decommissioning costs, nor waste
storage costs.


http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c051219.html

Corporate December 19, 2005
Honda to Mass Produce Next-Generation Thin Film Solar Cell

TOKYO, Japan, December 19, 2005 – Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced its
plan to begin mass production in 2007, of an independently developed
thin film solar cell composed of non-silicon compound materials, which
requires 50% less energy, and thus generate 50% less CO2, during
production compared to a conventional solar cell. A mass production
plant with annual capacity of 27.5 megawatts will be established at
Honda’s Kumamoto factory.

Honda will produce and sell solar panels in a limited area, starting
from 2006 fall, using assembly line within Honda Engineering Co.,
Ltd., the production engineering subsidiary of Honda.

By using thin film made from a compound of copper, indium, gallium and
selenium (CIGS), Honda’s next-generation solar cell achieved a major
reduction in energy consumed during the manufacturing process to
approximately 50% of the amount required by conventional crystal
silicon solar cells. Thus, this new solar cell is more
environmentally-friendly by reducing the amount of CO2 even from the
production stage. Further, this next-generation solar cell has
achieved the highest level of photoelectric transfer efficiency for a
thin film solar cell (almost equivalent to the conventional crystal
silicon solar cell).

Since spring 2002, Honda has been using and monitoring the performance
of this solar cell, first at the Outboard Engine Plant in Hosoe, and
then also at 12 other Honda facilities including Honda Engineering
headquarters and the Honda Wako Building in Japan and 3 overseas sites
such as the U.S. and Thailand.

Achieving lower costs and higher photoelectric transfer efficiency is
required in order to expand use of solar cells which will help protect
the global environment. This non-silicon thin film solar cell has been
attracting significant attention as a potential solution to these
challenges. The only remaining challenges were the stabilization of
performance and development of mass production technologies. The mass
production of Honda’s next-generation solar cell became possible with
a new mass production process for thin film solar cells developed
independently by Honda Engineering – a production engineering company
that has long developed production equipment and technologies for
Honda’s motorcycle, automobile, engine, electric motor for hybrid
vehicles and other items.

In addition to its effort to lower environmental load through
achieving reduced emissions and higher fuel efficiency, as the first
automaker to enter into solar cell business, Honda will contribute to
the effort to prevent global warming through production and sales of a
clean energy source which does not use fossil fuels. In its vision for
2010, Honda has committed itself to take on new challenges in new
areas and to develop environmentally-friendly and sustainable energy
technologies. Honda’s entrance into the solar cell business with
independently developed technologies is an example of the realization
of Honda’s 2010 vision.


About New Mass Production Line

Location: Within the current site of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. Kumamoto
Plant

Establishment: The line will become operational in latter half of 2007

Facility size: 12,000 square meters

Production capacity: 27.5 megawatts annually, (Equivalent amount of
electricity to power approximately 8,000 houses when calculated at
3.5kw per house)

Product/Use: Solar cell panel for individual residential use and
public industrial use

-----------------------

Here's a picture and article of Nanosolar's product:
http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/merc081504p.htm
http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:04:36 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On 9 Aug 2006 11:27:58 -0700, "M" wrote in
s.com:

That's a huge amount of ethanol to be made from corn or other
plants, plus the cost and the energy in distillation.

You forgot to mention the cost of growing the corn.

Ethanol production requires:

Land
Farm equipment for planting, irrigating and harvesting
Fuel for the farm equipment
Irrigation water
Fertilizers
Insecticides
Distillation equipment
Fuel for the still
Water for fermentation (CO2 byproduct)
Labor, labor, labor

So, if all the costs are factored in, Ethanol is probably more
expensive than gasoline.


Considering subsidies it's about $3.50 a gallon.

But the farm lobby is happy.

Corn is hard on the land and is very sensitive to how much moisture
and heat it gets and when.. A lot of us would prefer to grow
something else.


The next generation of photovoltaic equipment may be the ultimate
answer to energy the shortage. With solar there are no moving parts,
nor nuclear radiation emissions, nor decommissioning costs, nor waste
storage costs.

Depends on how you look at it. A good size solar set up requires a
hefty set of batteries. Some of the really good batteries are quite
toxic. Will they be able to recondition them or have to dispose of
them? I don't know.



http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c051219.html

Corporate December 19, 2005
Honda to Mass Produce Next-Generation Thin Film Solar Cell

TOKYO, Japan, December 19, 2005 – Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced its
plan to begin mass production in 2007, of an independently developed
thin film solar cell composed of non-silicon compound materials, which
requires 50% less energy, and thus generate 50% less CO2, during
production compared to a conventional solar cell. A mass production
plant with annual capacity of 27.5 megawatts will be established at
Honda’s Kumamoto factory.

Honda will produce and sell solar panels in a limited area, starting
from 2006 fall, using assembly line within Honda Engineering Co.,
Ltd., the production engineering subsidiary of Honda.

By using thin film made from a compound of copper, indium, gallium and
selenium (CIGS),

All highly toxic materials that appear to be in a form that would be
difficult to recover..

Honda’s next-generation solar cell achieved a major
reduction in energy consumed during the manufacturing process to
approximately 50% of the amount required by conventional crystal
silicon solar cells. Thus, this new solar cell is more
environmentally-friendly by reducing the amount of CO2 even from the
production stage. Further, this next-generation solar cell has
achieved the highest level of photoelectric transfer efficiency for a
thin film solar cell (almost equivalent to the conventional crystal
silicon solar cell).

Since spring 2002, Honda has been using and monitoring the performance
of this solar cell, first at the Outboard Engine Plant in Hosoe, and
then also at 12 other Honda facilities including Honda Engineering
headquarters and the Honda Wako Building in Japan and 3 overseas sites
such as the U.S. and Thailand.

Achieving lower costs and higher photoelectric transfer efficiency is
required in order to expand use of solar cells which will help protect
the global environment. This non-silicon thin film solar cell has been
attracting significant attention as a potential solution to these
challenges. The only remaining challenges were the stabilization of
performance and development of mass production technologies. The mass
production of Honda’s next-generation solar cell became possible with
a new mass production process for thin film solar cells developed
independently by Honda Engineering – a production engineering company
that has long developed production equipment and technologies for
Honda’s motorcycle, automobile, engine, electric motor for hybrid
vehicles and other items.

In addition to its effort to lower environmental load through
achieving reduced emissions and higher fuel efficiency, as the first
automaker to enter into solar cell business, Honda will contribute to
the effort to prevent global warming through production and sales of a
clean energy source which does not use fossil fuels. In its vision for
2010, Honda has committed itself to take on new challenges in new
areas and to develop environmentally-friendly and sustainable energy
technologies. Honda’s entrance into the solar cell business with

Using some of the most environmentally unfriendly materials in those
cells which is fine until some have to be disposed.

It would be interesting to see how these cells age compared to silicon
solar cells. I understand they've pretty much doubled the output and
cut the price in half on the silicon solar cells.

So we end up in a trade off between pollution during manufacture or
the materials from which they are made. Which is worse? I don't know.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
independently developed technologies is an example of the realization
of Honda’s 2010 vision.


About New Mass Production Line

Location: Within the current site of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. Kumamoto
Plant

Establishment: The line will become operational in latter half of 2007

Facility size: 12,000 square meters

Production capacity: 27.5 megawatts annually, (Equivalent amount of
electricity to power approximately 8,000 houses when calculated at
3.5kw per house)

Product/Use: Solar cell panel for individual residential use and
public industrial use

-----------------------

Here's a picture and article of Nanosolar's product:
http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/merc081504p.htm
http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:20:14 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. A good size solar set up requires a
hefty set of batteries. Some of the really good batteries are quite
toxic. Will they be able to recondition them or have to dispose of
them? I don't know.

What you posted next -- about the envionrmental impact of
manufacturing solar panels is valid. But about the need for
batteries, see:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/P...rticleID=13242

Don

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:58:49 GMT, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:20:14 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. A good size solar set up requires a
hefty set of batteries. Some of the really good batteries are quite
toxic. Will they be able to recondition them or have to dispose of
them? I don't know.

What you posted next -- about the envionrmental impact of
manufacturing solar panels is valid. But about the need for
batteries, see:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/P...rticleID=13242

I'd forgotten some areas are able to generate enough power and have
this option.

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size. If I was lucky I could expect to come out with maybe
a third the power generated per year that he sees, but I'd bet it'd be
far less than that due to clouds and average length of the day.
Then we'd have maintenance caused by storms plus low output due to
snow and ice covering the collectors.

AT a rounded up 8 cents per KWh his system would save me $415 dollars
for the year figuring 1/3rd the power generated. Unfortunately we
don't have near the sunshine they have in Ca in either hours or
strength.

Also, I'd want a system that could operate in a "stand alone" mode as
I've put well over 100 hours on a 9500 Watt generator in the last 6
years due to power outages. To be piratical most of this area would
require batteries or we'd be at the mercy of the power grid. Plus I'd
need some method of storing any excess generated and IF I could get
the power company go to along it'd be great as every little bit does
help. OTOH considering our power usage the generator would be far
cheaper than batteries.

Also we pay a graduated rate based on amount, not time of day.
Our highest rate is about 7 cents per KWH.

If I go by the figures in that article our average electrical use in
July last year was 22KWh per day. (We cut that to 11 KWh even with
this year's heat wave) With the much shorter days coming up the
electrical use will go up considerably as will the gas. The first day
of Summer the sun rises well before 6:00 AM and There is plenty of
light to fly by at close to 10 PM. Twilight ends near 11:00 PM. Our
days are something like 3 hours longer than down south that time of
year. In the Winter the sun rises around 8:00 AM and sets around 5:00
PM. Today was 14h and 6m long while tomorrow will be 2m 35s shorter
with the largest change coming the first day of Fall.

However, Solar may not be the answer up here, but wind is a strong
viable alternative, or could if we had the electrical grid capacity to
handle it. The state of Wisconsin agreed to purchase the excess power
from a wind farm that wasn't used. Unfortunately they found out just
how inadequate the electrical grid is in that area when it cost them
many millions of dollars. Inland in this area the wind is too
unpredictable, but there are nearby areas where it works, or would
work well. We have almost the ideal average, but they get that
average between very windy days and calm days.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Don
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:09:28 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size.

Agreed. Here's US map showing how much sun everyone around the
country gets:

http://projectsol.aps.com/solar/data_insolation.asp

Don (NR7X, FWIW)

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:31:17 GMT, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:09:28 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

He's a long way from Michigan and we may see that some day, but no
real incentives to install solar that I know of plus Michigan is a
cloudy 43'37" N ~ 85W. Here it' would take many years to pay off a
system that size.

Agreed. Here's US map showing how much sun everyone around the
country gets:

http://projectsol.aps.com/solar/data_insolation.asp

We don't receive enough sunlight to even be included in their
calculator. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Don (NR7X, FWIW)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

And the fuel used to till, plant and harvest. Sure, Brazil
can use E85, they have fewer cars and trucks than Los
Angeles (guess, but you can look it up).



"M" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jay Honeck wrote:
| We, as a nation, are
| inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol
into ALL
| gasoline, so it seems...
|
| I don't think there's nearly enough ethanol manufacturing
capacity to
| do a nation wide mix of E10. That's a huge amount of
ethanol to be
| made from corn or other plants, plus the cost and the
energy in
| distillation.
|

On 9 Aug 2006 11:27:58 -0700, "M" wrote:
I don't think there's nearly enough ethanol manufacturing capacity to
do a nation wide mix of E10. That's a huge amount of ethanol to be
made from corn or other plants, plus the cost and the energy in
distillation.

And more importantly, a waste of good corn liquor...

Grumman-581 wrote:
On 9 Aug 2006 11:27:58 -0700, "M" wrote:
I don't think there's nearly enough ethanol manufacturing capacity to
do a nation wide mix of E10. That's a huge amount of ethanol to be
made from corn or other plants, plus the cost and the energy in
distillation.

And more importantly, a waste of good corn liquor...

Ethanol made for burning is not much good for drinking....even before
being denatured.


An interesting point: the standard BATF denaturant (poison) is mostly
methanol with a couple of other things added for good measure. One of
which is...."Aviation Gasoline". If other denaturants are used the
alcohol is SD, specially denatured, if the standard denaturant is
chemically not OK for certain processes.