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  #1  
Old August 21st 06, 11:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Bob Moore
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Posts: 291
Default Joined the club today........


I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......


As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.

BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.

Bob Moore
CFI ATP
B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)
  #2  
Old August 21st 06, 11:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Steph[_1_]
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Posts: 2
Default Joined the club today........


Bob Moore wrote:
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.


Just trying to explain what it felt like. I'm not sure that cessna 150s
behave too well at 70knots and full power being held down on the tarmac
by a novice pilot who is still waiting for the ASI to show something. I
suspect I'd do better next time.

  #3  
Old August 21st 06, 11:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Bob Moore
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Posts: 291
Default Joined the club today........

Steph wrote
Just trying to explain what it felt like. I'm not sure that cessna 150s
behave too well at 70knots and full power being held down on the tarmac
by a novice pilot who is still waiting for the ASI to show something. I
suspect I'd do better next time.


Ah-Ha...wheelbarrowing...it does become difficult to control.

Bob Moore
  #4  
Old August 21st 06, 11:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Steph[_1_]
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Posts: 2
Default Joined the club today........


Bob Moore wrote:


As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.



I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.

  #5  
Old August 21st 06, 11:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Bob Moore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 291
Default Joined the club today........

Steph wrote

I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.


With 1500 RPM and the nose below the horizon, the airplane
WILL NOT stall. :-) There are some qualifications to this
generalized statement, learn what the runway looks like on a
stabilized approach and just always put the nose in that same
position every time, it WILL NOT stall.

Bob Moore
  #6  
Old August 22nd 06, 01:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dave Doe
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Posts: 378
Default Joined the club today........

In article , rmoore16
@tampabay.rr.com says...
Steph wrote

I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.


With 1500 RPM and the nose below the horizon, the airplane
WILL NOT stall. :-) There are some qualifications to this
generalized statement, learn what the runway looks like on a
stabilized approach and just always put the nose in that same
position every time, it WILL NOT stall.


I think the danger time is that turn onto final - too late, therefore
too steep, student gets fixaxted on the approach and the airspeed decays
in the turn.

I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???

--
Duncan
  #7  
Old November 22nd 06, 02:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Highflyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Joined the club today........

moore in Tampa Bay wrote:

I think the danger time is that turn onto final - too late, therefore
too steep, student gets fixaxted on the approach and the airspeed decays
in the turn.

I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???

--
Duncan


The turn from base to final is a bad place to stall. When someone stalls
inadvertently on that turn it is rarely, if ever, because they got too steep
in the bank. Pilots these days have been so thoroughly brainwashed that
they will NOT bank greater than thirty degrees in the traffic pattern.

When they find they are overshooting the turn and will be wide of the runway
they carefully hold their thirty degree maximum bank like they were taught
and then rush the turn by pouncing on the inside rudder to get the nose
around quicker. This doesn't really stall the whole airplane. It only
stalls the inside wing. The outside wing, which is still flying fine, then
proceeds to fly up and over the fuselage until it is the inside wing.
Unfortunately the resulting inverted position generally results in a quick
split ess maneuver that soon terminates when the airplane lands from the
inverted dive that results. This is not actually a spin because the
airplane generally contacts the ground at high speed before the spin has
time to properly develop.

Even a fortyfive degree bank only increases the stall speed by about
fourteen percent. The normal approach speed is about thirty percent above
stall speed. Consequently even a fortyfive degree bank in the pattern still
leaves you a fifteen percent margin. In a Cessna that is about five knots.

Of course, I must admit, I see few private pilots these days who can hold
their airspeed within five knots in a fortyfive degree bank. :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )



  #8  
Old November 22nd 06, 02:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
john smith
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Posts: 1,446
Default Joined the club today........

I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???

Personally, I have lost three good friends due to stalls on base to
final. Two in an RV-6 in 1989 and one in a T-6 in 1999.
  #9  
Old August 22nd 06, 01:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Joined the club today........

Hi Bob,


Since you have 35 years experience as an instructore, perhaps you can
help me.
I am attending flying school PART61 and jsut fly one time. But aI was
able to land the airplane by my self, thanks to Flight SImulator.
Based on my 15 years experience on the Flight Simulator, do you have
any input as far as a program that fits with me? The school offered me
a standart program for a student that have zero knowledge about
airplane, and I believe I am about one or two step ahead of them.
I am familiar with S Turn, Steep Turn, Lazy 8, Traffic Patern,
Rectagle, Touch and Go etc.
I also Familiar with the preflight check, VFR, IFR Learning ADF, NDP
and also using approach plate. On my first flight lesson, I learned
Climb, Descend, Turn and Straight and level perfectly and plus landed
the cessna 152 right in the middle.
Based on your experience, Could you please give me an input regarding a
type of program that can be customize for me. Of course i am hoping
that my skilll from Fligth Sim will safe me money big time.

The flying school will teach me a radio comm and flight patern after 20
hour dual flight or meeting number 20th. What happen while during the
lesson, my instructure passed out and I have no idea waht to say on the
radio.

Thank you Bob for your time

Thank you Bob, I appreciate your time.




Bob Moore wrote:
I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......


As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.

BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.

Bob Moore
CFI ATP
B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)


  #10  
Old November 22nd 06, 02:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Highflyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Joined the club today........

Based on my experience your skill with Flight Sim will give you so many bad
habits to unlearn and overcome before you can fly a real airplane safely
that it will take you considerably longer to achieve the competency required
to a license.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Bob,


Since you have 35 years experience as an instructore, perhaps you can
help me.
I am attending flying school PART61 and jsut fly one time. But aI was
able to land the airplane by my self, thanks to Flight SImulator.
Based on my 15 years experience on the Flight Simulator, do you have
any input as far as a program that fits with me? The school offered me
a standart program for a student that have zero knowledge about
airplane, and I believe I am about one or two step ahead of them.
I am familiar with S Turn, Steep Turn, Lazy 8, Traffic Patern,
Rectagle, Touch and Go etc.
I also Familiar with the preflight check, VFR, IFR Learning ADF, NDP
and also using approach plate. On my first flight lesson, I learned
Climb, Descend, Turn and Straight and level perfectly and plus landed
the cessna 152 right in the middle.
Based on your experience, Could you please give me an input regarding a
type of program that can be customize for me. Of course i am hoping
that my skilll from Fligth Sim will safe me money big time.

The flying school will teach me a radio comm and flight patern after 20
hour dual flight or meeting number 20th. What happen while during the
lesson, my instructure passed out and I have no idea waht to say on the
radio.

Thank you Bob for your time

Thank you Bob, I appreciate your time.




Bob Moore wrote:
I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......


As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily.
:-)
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.

BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.

Bob Moore
CFI ATP
B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)




 




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