Class A airspace

5Z wrote:
flying_monkey wrote:
But what I'm really curious about is why SeeYou doesn't report this as
a violation when that function is activated.

I may be wrong, but I don't think SeeYou has a set of rules for pure
altitude based violations. If you define a SUA that covers your area
of interest and has a base of 18K, then it might trigger. I typically
look at the statistics as those show a max altitude.

-Tom


Hallooo:
WinPilot, etc warn close to Class A or Restricted, unless the
function is turned off or your airspace file is old or corrupt. (The
airspace file, not the pilot!) I don't think that any program or the
OLC would flag you for being within 500 feet of a structure on a ridge
flight though. You might find a few instances of that violation if
you're bored enough to look. (ie: it's rained for a week and you feel
like being a Fed)
Agreed, if you talk to ATC and get clearance into Class A or a
restricted area; an option we all may excercise; it would be best noted
in pilot comments of OLC flights. Not sure how to explain permission to
fly 300' over a ski lift, though!
It's nice to cruise the Whites, but sometimes I miss ridge flying.
Jim

JS wrote:
5Z wrote:
flying_monkey wrote:
But what I'm really curious about is why SeeYou doesn't report this as
a violation when that function is activated.

I may be wrong, but I don't think SeeYou has a set of rules for pure
altitude based violations. If you define a SUA that covers your area
of interest and has a base of 18K, then it might trigger. I typically
look at the statistics as those show a max altitude.

-Tom


Hallooo:
WinPilot, etc warn close to Class A or Restricted, unless the
function is turned off or your airspace file is old or corrupt. (The
airspace file, not the pilot!) I don't think that any program or the
OLC would flag you for being within 500 feet of a structure on a ridge
flight though. You might find a few instances of that violation if
you're bored enough to look. (ie: it's rained for a week and you feel
like being a Fed)
Agreed, if you talk to ATC and get clearance into Class A or a
restricted area; an option we all may excercise; it would be best noted
in pilot comments of OLC flights. Not sure how to explain permission to
fly 300' over a ski lift, though!
It's nice to cruise the Whites, but sometimes I miss ridge flying.
Jim

I don't see how any glider I've seen could be cleared into Class A.
Even if the controller says it's OK and gives a clearance, the fact
that the pilot is probably not instrument rated and current, and the
glider is certainly not legally equipped for IFR flight would prevent
you from accepting the clearance. A wave window is different, I think.
That's actually a modification of the airspace, so that where you're
flying isn't Class A.

Looking further into the FARs, they could have had traffic assigned to
FL185 that day. The flight under discussion certainly penetrated that
airspace. Might not be normal for IFR traffic to be there, but it's
possible. I think I'll set my personal limit to maybe 17,500 (like
I'll ever get a chance to do that. Hah!).

Regarding getting the attention of the feds, it doesn't seem smart to
post any flight to OLC which shows a pressure altitude that penetrates
18,000 for even one data point, or a GPS altitude that penetrates that
when corrected for the difference between surface barometric pressure
and 29.92. SeeYou will certainly tell you about this if you look
carefully, and I'm sure other programs will too. Also, do you suppose
the pilot changed from the nasal cannula he was probably using for
oxygen to a mask for the time above 18,000'? If we as a community keep
giving out enough information (and rope), the public or the feds will
happily hang us with that rope.

Can you actually get permission to overfly that ski lift? And, can you
anticipate it far enough in advance to ask? Many ridges have the
occasional house along the top, you'd have to have permission for each
one of those, too. The ridge is certainly fun, but thermalling into
Class A, can you imagine that? I've got to move back out west. (Wife
says, "No chance.") Maybe I can make a deal with her for a week at
Minden or someplace. It would take too long to tow the glider out
there, so it'll have to be someplace where I can fly into and rent
something decent.

Ed

flying_monkey wrote:

I don't see how any glider I've seen could be cleared into Class A.

It can be done, however, and a waiver is one way to do it.

Even if the controller says it's OK and gives a clearance, the fact
that the pilot is probably not instrument rated and current, and the
glider is certainly not legally equipped for IFR flight would prevent
you from accepting the clearance. A wave window is different, I think.
That's actually a modification of the airspace, so that where you're
flying isn't Class A.

It is still Class A, but the pilot(s) have been given waivers from the
Class A requirements. A minor point, but important because only pilots
with waivers are allowed into the airspace, not just anybody, even if
the wave window is in operation.


Looking further into the FARs, they could have had traffic assigned to
FL185 that day. The flight under discussion certainly penetrated that
airspace.

I believe, but can't site a regulation or procedure, that ATC keeps at
least 1000' between FL assignments and 18,000 msl. Still, I agree it's
bad behavior, and even if there is a 1000' margin, the glider pilot
should not be using it. It's not a margin anymore, then, is it?

Might not be normal for IFR traffic to be there, but it's
possible. I think I'll set my personal limit to maybe 17,500 (like
I'll ever get a chance to do that. Hah!).

Wave exists back East. Go for it!


Regarding getting the attention of the feds, it doesn't seem smart to
post any flight to OLC which shows a pressure altitude that penetrates
18,000 for even one data point, or a GPS altitude that penetrates that
when corrected for the difference between surface barometric pressure
and 29.92.

It is not possible to do the correction using surface barometric
pressure, because the altimeter and the GPS are measuring two different
things (altimeter-pressure, GPS-height). You would have to know the
atmospheric pressure and temperature from the surface to the glider
before you could convert the GPS measurement to an altimeter reading.
So, we need to stick with the pressure log for these discussions,
because the 18,000 msl is a pressure number.

Also, do you suppose
the pilot changed from the nasal cannula he was probably using for
oxygen to a mask for the time above 18,000'?

Since this isn't part of the logger record, I don't think we have to
worry about stuff like this affecting our "reputation". If he was
getting enough oxygen at 18,000, he's still getting enough even at
19,000, so it's not a safety concern, just a "regulatory" infraction.

I do worry about pilots posting flights that seem to break the rules,
for just the reasons you mention.

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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

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