Cost Savings for PPL

HI Jack,

Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
up with AOPA.

Thank you

Jack Cunniff wrote:
"oscarm" writes:

Hi Group,

I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since I've been
playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson I was able to
land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight Simulator.
I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to other student
that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before. Is there any
body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give my self a
target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
works.
In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program or jsut trying
to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
while I am paying it.
Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
the budget.

Thank you for your help

Welcome to the newsgroup.

Like the other folks who have responded, I'm concerned about the
requirement of thirty hours dual before you solo. I soloed after seven
hours of dual, and like you, I thank my experience with many flight
simulator programs. Of course, flight simulators were a little different
twenty years ago, but the basics don't really change. Unless you're
having trouble learning and demonstrating the necessary skills for your
first solo, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to solo in less time
than you were quoted. If they -require- thirty hours, you should take your
logbook and your checkbook, and go somewhere else, without spending any
more money with these people.

Learning at an airport in a Class E airspace (which we call a UNICOM
field, because it doesn't have a tower) has the advantage of doing more
flying and less talking on the radio. Still, if you are going to be a
pilot in California, you'll find you need to do a lot of flying with air
traffic control, and towered fields, so don't be afraid to learn at an
airport with a control tower.

Lastly, that $3000 figure might be a problem. One thing about aviation,
everything costs a bit more than you think it will. As you continue
flying, you'll learn that you'll always be able to come up with more and
faster ways to spend your money. Unless you're willing to break your
budget on a somewhat regular basis, flying might not be for you.

You might want to check out AOPA's FAQs on this, at
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/stude.../presolo/faqs/
While you're there, maybe you will sign up for six free issues of Flight
Training magazine (click the "No Risk, enroll today") on that page.
An AOPA membership will let you read all the online content.
Note: I'm not affiliated with AOPA, but I AM a member.

Best of luck,

-Jack

"oscarm" writes:

HI Jack,

Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
up with AOPA.

You're welcome. Glad to help out.

Most important thing is that you get the opportunity to solo, when you are
ready to do so. If the flight school says you'll solo only after thirty
hours of dual, it's something I've never heard of, and it doesn't make
sense to me. Having said that, I'm not a CFI, nor do I want to be one.

Best of luck!

-Jack

oscarm wrote:
: HI Jack,

: Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
: thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
: school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
: confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
: 30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
: california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
: advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
: much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
: Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
: up with AOPA.

I'll agree with what's already been said.... RUN away from the school requiring 30 hours before solo. The funny thing
about earning the PPL is that the regulations look completely black and white... 10 hours of this, 3 hours of that, this many
dual cross countries, this many solo, etc... The point you need to realize is that these number are the established *minimums*
required for the license. The actual amount required is completely determined by how long it takes you to learn how to do
everything. Ten hours at a non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people, but some people might take
30 hours before they get the basics required for solo flight learned.

My suggestion is as others have suggested. Try finding another CFI in the area and a plane you you can rent they can
instruct in. My guess is that $3000 will be too low for learning in California no matter how you cut it. If you're looking
for ways to save money and flight time, try "double-dipping" the required hours. For instance, if you're going on a
cross-country, land at a towered field and do your 3 solo T&L there then. If you're on your last dual cross-country, see if
you can get some of the enroute time under the hood for instrument practice. Not everyone can absorb this much info so it may
not work for you, but it's a way to keep the hours down if you can.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Cory Papenfuss wrote:
Ten hours at a
non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people,
but some people might take 30 hours before they get the basics
required for solo flight learned.

The national average for time-to--solo is currently about 17 hours.
As the 'required items before solo' continue to increase, doing it
in 10 hours is not reasonable. If one is a 'true teacher', and by
that, I mean...demonstrate, teach, evaluate... each of those 15
required items, 13-14 hours is a more reasonable estimate.

For example, an instructor must decide for each day's lesson, what is
the one or two things that the student will go home with, having truly
'learned', not just demonstrated.

If a student is allowed to attempt a landing during the first lesson
as the OP was, he will go home remembering nothing else, as we can
see in the his post.

A new student shows up for his first flight lesson having just passed
the knowledge test....what do I want him to go home KNOWING how to do:

1. PREFLIGHT...In the preflight briefing, explain each item on the list.
At the airplane, point-out each item using the checklist. Then
require the student to conduct a preflight using the checklist. If
you can do this in less than 30 minutes, you are a better man than I.
2. ENGINE START...Demonstrate the Pre-Start Checklist...Or! Just let the
student go through the checklist himself and you correct his
mistakes... ****-poor instructing technique. Demonstrate...help the
student the second time and then require the student to do it
correctly the third time through. Right!!! 3 engine starts.
Now.....he knows how to start the engine!. Maybe 20 min.
3. TAXI...Left/Right turns, stopping in a straight line, locked
brake turns, getting on and staying on the centerline. All of this is
not as easy for a beginner as we think, they try to steer with the yoke
and stop with just the right rudder/brake pedal just as in an
automobile. Make them taxi with their hands on their legs to break the
automobile habits.
4. ENGINE RUN-UP....Use checklist in the briefing room during the preflight
briefing without the sound of the engine running. In the run-up area,
demonstrate a proper run-up and then assist the student to do one.
5. TAKEOFF RUN...After a thorough preflight discussion of engine, propellor
and wind effects on the takeoff run, conduct at least two runs down the
runway with no intention of becoming airborne. If a student is faced
with the anxiety of becoming airborne for the first time, he will not
retain anything about what his feet were doing the the takeoff run.
6. AND FINALLY....Just one trip around the pattern with the student being
talked through the takeoff and initial climb but then becoming just a
passenger for the remainder of the pattern and landing. Do not send
him home frustrated because he didn't make a good landing on his first
flight

It takes a very good student to fully grasp the first five items above and
feel good about himself.

From FAR 61:

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-
engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-
engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and
preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations
with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery
from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


Bob Moore
CFIing for 35 years