Cloud Flying

snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Good questions, jacekkobiesa.

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.

C'mon you USA IFR glider pilots, jump in here. I know they cloud fly
elsewhere in the world, but I think we'd all like to hear how to do it
here at home.

snoop


wrote:
snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Sorry Jack but your dead wrong. There are flesh and bone reasons why we
should teach people why we don't penetrate clouds, in US
gliders/airspace. Actually, the legal reasons are what the thread here
is searching for.

Consider this Jack. You just got called in by the FAA for IFR glider
flying here in the USA. Let's be optimistic and say nobody ran into you
and you didn't kill anybody. But now our sport is on the carpet because
you broke the law, and your flying days are done due to FAA certificate
action.
Nice, now what questions would you be re asking yourself, and what
lame exscuses would you try to present to the inspectors, and the
unlimited expert witnesses sitting in the room.. There aren't any. Buy
a nice ASA FAR/AIM book and catch up on your reading.

With regard to wave flying, yes we get a window, and stay out of the
clouds and ahead of the weather. I've flown the wave window at Marfa,
where we had a window, a chunk of airspace, but still not a clearance
into IFR conditions. The topic here is getting a clearance and going
into solid IFR. Jack I'm open for enlightenment on how to legally do
it.

Your statement " it can be done safely under limited circumstances"
won't hold up when your dancin' for the FAA.

Thanks for your input,

Snoop


58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

snoop wrote:

Sorry Jack but your dead wrong. There are flesh and bone reasons why we
should teach people why we don't penetrate clouds, in US
gliders/airspace.

Let's deal with what I wrote:

"It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to
scare them away."

When you tell folks, "Don't do it," and just walk away, you've lost your
best chance to influence their behavior in the long run. As a matter of
fact, I suspect you and I would arrive at the same point after beating
around this bush for awhile. I won't get "called in by the FAA for IFR
[sic] glider flying here in the USA," because I won't be doing any.


With regard to wave flying, yes we get a window, and stay out of the
clouds and ahead of the weather. I've flown the wave window at Marfa,
where we had a window, a chunk of airspace, but still not a clearance
into IFR [sic] conditions. The topic here is getting a clearance and going
into solid IFR [sic].

The topic can be anything you want it to be, Snoop, but the thread is
titled "Cloud Flying".


Your statement " it can be done safely under limited circumstances"
won't hold up when your dancin' for the FAA.

"It can be done safely under limited circumstances" is a statement for a
NG discussion on the topic of "Cloud Flying". Legality is a different
question and one on which it is clear you are confidant you know the
answer. The FAA might even agree with you, but if they didn't they'd
never tell anyone -- you know how they are. So maybe you can point out
to us those FAR's that actually prohibit gliders from flying in clouds
in the USA under any circumstances. And then we can watch advocates from
the other side of the issue show us where their FAR's can beat up your
FAR's.

This ought to be fun....


Jack

58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Jack,

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s). The only thing pilots here,
"out west" flying wave are using is some sort of attitude indicator.
And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.
And when I go wave flying (I don't have any IFR instruments in my
glider) I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s); how
about the terrain below you? what other navigation means do you use to
know your position to nearest nav-aids or the ground? I would not take
any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into IMC. And don't
mistake occasional flight through an outer edge of a cloud, which will
last a few seconds with a flight in solid cloud. And if you would like
come here and visit with us, I'll take you for a wave flight which more
than likely will change your outlook on flying in limited visibility
and with a terrain of about 14,000 ft. around you. It is not scary, it
is a fact.

So, having said that, as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that. If I don't know
something I would like to learn. So, I am waiting for explanation(s) as
well as I am looking forward to the publication mentioned by the
original poster.

Jacek
Washington State

I'd love to take a wave flight out in WA. with you. Your correct we're
not talking about the occasional zip through a wisp.

But let's be up front here, you mentioned the 757, not me, and yes this
thread is anxiously waiting to hear from it's author on the subject of
IFR glider flying with a clearance, Shawn.



wrote:
58y wrote:
snoop wrote:

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.


What do they do when flying in wave out west with the threat of the
fain(sp?) gap closing? You stay ahead of the weather. Same thing you do
in any aircraft, on every flight. There's always the chance the
destination can go below your minimums, in a 1-26 or in a 757. Don't
make it look harder than it is.

Anybody that has a personal problem with flying in clouds shouldn't do
it. It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to scare
them away.


Jack

Jack,

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s). The only thing pilots here,
"out west" flying wave are using is some sort of attitude indicator.
And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.
And when I go wave flying (I don't have any IFR instruments in my
glider) I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s); how
about the terrain below you? what other navigation means do you use to
know your position to nearest nav-aids or the ground? I would not take
any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into IMC. And don't
mistake occasional flight through an outer edge of a cloud, which will
last a few seconds with a flight in solid cloud. And if you would like
come here and visit with us, I'll take you for a wave flight which more
than likely will change your outlook on flying in limited visibility
and with a terrain of about 14,000 ft. around you. It is not scary, it
is a fact.

So, having said that, as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that. If I don't know
something I would like to learn. So, I am waiting for explanation(s) as
well as I am looking forward to the publication mentioned by the
original poster.

Jacek
Washington State

wrote:

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s).

Single-pilot IFR in IMC is challenging in any aircraft--some more than
others. On the other hand, nobody here has yet advocated six legs ending
with circling approaches at night in snowstorms as an example of the
kind of "cloud flying" that gliders might do.


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.


...I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s)....
I would not take any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into
IMC.

Excellent. Then we're in full agreement. Why ascribe any less caution to
a properly trained and equipped glider pilot flying legally in clouds in
a different environment?


...as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that.

That's what we're all here for, Jacek. Hopefully we can clarify what is,
and is not, legal. I suspect that the possible may already be fairly
well outlined, but I await the input from more experienced guiders of
gliders in cloud.



Jack

58y wrote:
wrote:

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s).

Single-pilot IFR in IMC is challenging in any aircraft--some more than
others. On the other hand, nobody here has yet advocated six legs ending
with circling approaches at night in snowstorms as an example of the
kind of "cloud flying" that gliders might do.


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.


...I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s)....
I would not take any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into
IMC.

Excellent. Then we're in full agreement. Why ascribe any less caution to
a properly trained and equipped glider pilot flying legally in clouds in
a different environment?


...as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that.

That's what we're all here for, Jacek. Hopefully we can clarify what is,
and is not, legal. I suspect that the possible may already be fairly
well outlined, but I await the input from more experienced guiders of
gliders in cloud.



Jack

Jack,


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.

I have not flown 767....but I have flown 737-300 and -400 in which I am
rated and some .

What worries me in here is the fact that most of opinions expressed in
this posting are greatly simplifying flight in a glider while IMC. I
used to fly my 182, prior to that in 177RG and prior to that in
Cherokee Archer III in solid IFR...well, I was getting out of the plane
exhausted. When I added a simple S-TEC system 30 autopilot with
altitude hold things did improve dramatically. But flying a Cessna or
737 is not the same as flying any glider.I witnessed in 1983 a pilot
getting into Cumulonimbus in a Foka....he came out of the cloud in
pieces. I also happen know the regs. I am also a CFI, -G and -II....can
I fly in IFR conditions in a glider if I must (like if flying the wave
and you get a solid undercast)..I sure can, will I do it for
pleasure...no way.

What I am trying to say is that by giving some ideas to less
experienced pilots will lead to problems of all kinds of magnitude.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Jacek,

I'm anxiously awaiting the article as well! Until it is, though, here
are some tasty morsels:

There aren't any FAR's that clearly say: "To fly a glider under IFR,
you must..." But there are some regs that we can correlate together to
find that, yes, flying a glider under IFR is completely legal. Such
as:

There is no instrument rating available for gliders, as is specified by
CFAR § 61.5(b)(8):

§ 61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than
student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the
training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates
only)-
(i) Instrument-Airplane.
(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.
(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.


But, CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a pilot can get certified to fly a
glider under IFR:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.


And, CFAR § 61.57(c)(2) specifies the recent pilot experience needed
to act as PIC in a glider under IFR:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-

(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is
to be carried.


Furthermore, CFAR § 61.57(d)(1)(iii) specifies how a glider pilot can
get an instrument competency check:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience
requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed
time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not
serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than
the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument
proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks
required by the instrument rating practical test.
(1) The instrument proficiency check must be-
(iii) For a glider, in a single-engine airplane or a glider.


As far as inspections are concerned, CFAR § 91.413(a) does not exempt
gliders from the 24-month transponder inspection requirement:

§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in
91.215(a), 121.345(c), or §135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within
the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested
and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this
chapter.


But the altimeter inspection required by CFAR § 91.411 only applies to
airplanes and helicopters:

§ 91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and
inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless- snip


Equipment requirements to certify your glider for IFR flight are
determined by the manufacturer, and the FAA. If you certify your
glider with an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, you will need to
comply with your certificate's limitations, just like any other
experimantal aircraft.


As far as the procedure for receiving your IFR clearance is concerned,
you can use any approved method, there aren't any special procedures
for gliders.


And, FYI, I just visited the Schempp-Hirth factory last week where I
saw a beautiful new IFR-certified Ventus with a US registration. Yes,
it's legal.

Chris Fleming, F2





wrote:

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State