Cloud Flying

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point. Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.
You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

Thanks for the input



Fox Two wrote:
snoop wrote:
Good find. That's what I saw, in the same vein, with 61.57, how to stay
current, but the requirements for an instrument rating still leave us
hanging out there, as mentioned earlier. Now we need the operational or
part 91 end of it. How to do it. Hang in there guys, Shawn, c'mon buddy
we need you to help here.


Snoop-

What are you talking about?! Ask a specific question! Flying a glider
under IFR is EXACTLY THE SAME as flying an airplane under IFR. That is
why an instrument rating in airplanes is required to fly a glider under
IFR. Here's how you do it:

1. File the flight plan.
2. Receive the ATC clearance.
3. Fly the glider!

If your flight is intended to be local in nature, you request a block
clearance both laterally and vertically, and remain within your
clearance limits. If you are flying cross country, you receive a route
clearance with authorization to deviate up to x miles left and right of
course within a block altitude limit.

If you already have your instument-airplane rating, and a few hundered
hours of instrument experinece, you should already know all of this.
If you don't, then you shouldn't consider flying a glider IFR.

Chris Fleming, F2

Snoop,

That's more like it: specific questions. It appears to me that you are
making this way too difficult. Here we go:

snoop wrote:

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point.

What is your intended task? If you're going from A to B and landing at
B, then file from A to B. Most glider cross-countries start and end at
the same place, so file from A to A via B and C. You can amend your
clearance at any time. If you don't think you can make B, just tell
ATC and request clearance to C, or back to A or to a new destination D.
In short, just tell them what you want to do!

Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Your initial clearance is
going to have an altitude block. Throughout your flight, you will
amend this clearance both up and down. I've had clearances which had
8,000 foot deep altitude blocks!

You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

TERPS means Terminal Instrument Procedures. Do you seriously intend to
fly an ILS in a glider? I didn't think so. Likewise, DP's STAR's and
all other IAP's are irrelevant to IFR gliders. Gliders need to depart
and arrive under VFR. TERPS doesn't apply.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

As for filing your route, just file direct. For altitude, file for
your estimated max altitude. In the remarks section, write: Glider
flight. Will require course deviations and block altitudes from ATC.

Yes, you must remain within the parameters of the clearance. So, you
shouldn't accept a clearance that you can't comply with. If you're at
5,170 feet and scratching in weak lift, do not accept an altitude
clearance that requires you to remain above 5,000 feet! Likewise, if
you've encountered unexpected sink, advise ATC that you will need a new
altitude clearance. It all comes down to COMMUNICATION!


I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

90% of flying an airplane IFR includes VMC departures and arrivals,
with only a few moments in IMC conditions. Just like a glider.


Thanks for the input


You're welcome. Now let me add this: to safely fly a glider in IFR
conditions, the pilot must be able to walk and chew gum at the same
time. Flying a glider effectively on a cross-country is challenging.
Flying single-pilot IFR is challenging. Flying a glider on a
single-pilot IFR cross-country is extremely challenging. Prerequisites
should include many recent hours in both glider cross-countries and IFR
procedures.

At the risk of speaking for others, glider pilots that fly IFR have
huge personal weather minimums. They won't consider flying IFR unless
they are certain that they will be able to cancel IFR and continue to
their destination under VFR with a significant safety margin. Most
pilots will file IFR with no intention of ever flying into a cloud.
Instead, they want to be able to fly closer to the cloud than the
minimum distances required for VFR. Most IFR cross-countries are in
mountain waves, and the risk of going from clear and a million to
suddenly being engulfed in a thick cloud is real. Being on an IFR
flight plan is a safety measure.

Finally, nothing can substitute for good judgment. IFR in gliders can
be a valuable tool, but it can easily kill you. Don't even think of
doing it unless you are certain that there is no risk from doing it.
Actually, your criteria should be the opposite: do it only if you think
it is the safer option.

Chris Fleming, F2
ATP B-767, CFI-G

Chris,

I don't want to make it difficult. What I do want is for those of us,
who want to protect our sport of soaring from, the intense scrutiny of
the public eye, and the heavy hand of big brother, to think through
this difficult subject. As seen in this thread there is a lot to this
thing we call IFR flying. I fly IFR everyday at work, all around the
world. Its wonderful, and like flying gliders, gives a lot of
satisfaction to the pilot side of the brain.

Your input has been very helpful, but to me there are still a lot of
loose ends. When I flew cargo in twin cessnas, back in the late
seventies, we filed our own flight plans with the FSS desk at DPA,
under the watchful eye of Theo Moore, the king of the local FSDO. Theo
would collect our flight plans and go over each box on that little
flight plan card to see that we met the letter of the law. For instance
if it was a day when it was lifr, he would check the validity of our
alternate, our fuel. The guy was not bashful about doing this while
standing behind the counter as we filled them in. All our pilots
received a first hand lesson in what goes in each of those little
boxes, and why. Lessons that still apply today whether filing into MKE,
or VIDP.

My point here is I'm still fuzzy on the official guys (FSS, ATC)
accepting something as simple as the flight plan for our glider as you
described. From an operational viewpoint, it's clear as a bell to me,
it's simple. I've received untold numbers of pop up clearances in the
past.

There are still MEAs, MOCAs, MVAs, things, that the contollers have to
govern who they turn loose in the clouds. How does the local guy work
around these. Again it appears quite simple from the operational end,
but.......

Then, there is local knowledge, which I'm thinking goes a long way
with glider IFR. That is what we need clarification of. And use
conservative common sense. But that term is not in the FAAs handbook.

As you well know most of these FAA regs have blood written on them. I
would have to have the controller himself tell me the TERPs are out the
window when it comes to my glider flying IFR.

What I'm hoping Shawn will do before publishing anything about IFR
glider flying is to take all of our points, sit down with his local
FSS, ATC guys, the guys who give him his clearance, and hash it out.
Maybe get Shawn, or anyone else who knows how to, no, wait, there are a
lot of people who think they know how it's done, let's get those who do
file, and fly their glider IFR, to get their local ATC/FSS people to
present a paper, or talk to the local groups, about the procedures and
responsibilities of flying our gliders IFR.

With all due respect to Shawn and his paper, these things, he has
probably done!

Your exactly right about doing it as a "safe option". We might have to
dance with the feds, after the help ATC gives us, to get us back to
VFR conditions, but we sure don't want a 340 knot mustard colored
suppositorie up the backside.

snoop



Fox Two wrote:
Snoop,

That's more like it: specific questions. It appears to me that you are
making this way too difficult. Here we go:

snoop wrote:

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point.

What is your intended task? If you're going from A to B and landing at
B, then file from A to B. Most glider cross-countries start and end at
the same place, so file from A to A via B and C. You can amend your
clearance at any time. If you don't think you can make B, just tell
ATC and request clearance to C, or back to A or to a new destination D.
In short, just tell them what you want to do!

Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Your initial clearance is
going to have an altitude block. Throughout your flight, you will
amend this clearance both up and down. I've had clearances which had
8,000 foot deep altitude blocks!

You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

TERPS means Terminal Instrument Procedures. Do you seriously intend to
fly an ILS in a glider? I didn't think so. Likewise, DP's STAR's and
all other IAP's are irrelevant to IFR gliders. Gliders need to depart
and arrive under VFR. TERPS doesn't apply.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

As for filing your route, just file direct. For altitude, file for
your estimated max altitude. In the remarks section, write: Glider
flight. Will require course deviations and block altitudes from ATC.

Yes, you must remain within the parameters of the clearance. So, you
shouldn't accept a clearance that you can't comply with. If you're at
5,170 feet and scratching in weak lift, do not accept an altitude
clearance that requires you to remain above 5,000 feet! Likewise, if
you've encountered unexpected sink, advise ATC that you will need a new
altitude clearance. It all comes down to COMMUNICATION!


I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

90% of flying an airplane IFR includes VMC departures and arrivals,
with only a few moments in IMC conditions. Just like a glider.


Thanks for the input


You're welcome. Now let me add this: to safely fly a glider in IFR
conditions, the pilot must be able to walk and chew gum at the same
time. Flying a glider effectively on a cross-country is challenging.
Flying single-pilot IFR is challenging. Flying a glider on a
single-pilot IFR cross-country is extremely challenging. Prerequisites
should include many recent hours in both glider cross-countries and IFR
procedures.

At the risk of speaking for others, glider pilots that fly IFR have
huge personal weather minimums. They won't consider flying IFR unless
they are certain that they will be able to cancel IFR and continue to
their destination under VFR with a significant safety margin. Most
pilots will file IFR with no intention of ever flying into a cloud.
Instead, they want to be able to fly closer to the cloud than the
minimum distances required for VFR. Most IFR cross-countries are in
mountain waves, and the risk of going from clear and a million to
suddenly being engulfed in a thick cloud is real. Being on an IFR
flight plan is a safety measure.

Finally, nothing can substitute for good judgment. IFR in gliders can
be a valuable tool, but it can easily kill you. Don't even think of
doing it unless you are certain that there is no risk from doing it.
Actually, your criteria should be the opposite: do it only if you think
it is the safer option.

Chris Fleming, F2
ATP B-767, CFI-G

snoop wrote:
Chris,

I don't want to make it difficult.

Then don't. I was a freight dog, too. I always had to watch
everything with a magnifying glass to make sure I was legal to the
letter. I understand your mindset. But this isn't that.


My point here is I'm still fuzzy on the official guys (FSS, ATC)
accepting something as simple as the flight plan for our glider as you
described. From an operational viewpoint, it's clear as a bell to me,
it's simple. I've received untold numbers of pop up clearances in the
past.


You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

My point is that controllers will work with you if you work with them.
Fitting a glider into their traffic flow can be a burden to them, so
make it less so. Stay away from busy airways. If you need to transit
a busy airway, you may need to wait for a few minutes for ATC to make
room. Then when you're cleared to proceed, cross the airway quickly so
they can use it again. If they need an altitude that you've currently
got blocked, if you can, release it back to them to get the transient
through. Let's all just get along.

There are still MEAs, MOCAs, MVAs, things, that the contollers have to
govern who they turn loose in the clouds. How does the local guy work
around these. Again it appears quite simple from the operational end,
but.......

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.


As you well know most of these FAA regs have blood written on them. I
would have to have the controller himself tell me the TERPs are out the
window when it comes to my glider flying IFR.

Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

let's get those who do
file, and fly their glider IFR, to get their local ATC/FSS people to
present a paper, or talk to the local groups, about the procedures and
responsibilities of flying our gliders IFR.

What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.

Chris Fleming, F2

Fox Two wrote:

You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.

Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.


Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

Chris, I will concur that we're not flying low IFR, and we won't be
doing ILS approaches, although I have a glider accident in mind, where
the pilot did try to penetrate some LIFR weather and lost. He lived,
but there was a lot of serious head scratching on his part. The answers
I'm looking for, the fundamental, basic answers we need are, how do I
explain my right to be at 19,000ft with an airliner bearing down on me,
(your scenario), to the fed that meets me on the ramp after the part
121 captain calls this in. Your a professional pilot, what are your
words to all the basic, specific, fundamental, IFR pilot/equipment
questions that your going to face?


What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Chris, I'm not convinced, and saying people do it everyday, well let's
just say I think all USA clubs need to get the donuts out and talk this
one up. I know there are people in clubs who can get this discussion
going.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.


Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Later, I'm off to the soaring club!

snoop wrote:

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.


Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.

Snoop, we aren't navigating airways! In fact, no navigation equipment
of any kind is required to fly IFR! You need to stop thinking like a
135/121 airplane pilot. You're in a GLIDER. The world of aviation is
a big place, and most pilots are only familiar with their little slice
of it. You need to think outside of your box.

Scroll up to my first message; I've referenced the exact regs that
legalize IFR gliders. It is legal. Period.

My final case-in point: The Goodyear Blimp flies IFR over football
games all of the time. There are tens of thousands of people who are
first-person eye witnesses to this fact as they watch the blimp fly in
and out of the clouds on a snowy day. Millions more see this on TV.
I'm sure that one or two of those fans is a fed. The pilot of the
blimp is getting paid. It's a commercial operation with passengers on
board. But there is no requirement for that pilot to have an
instrument rating of any kind. He might be 1,000 feet AGL, definitely
below the lowest minimum IFR altitude for airplanes. He's IFR without
a rating, and he's perfectly legal. It's a big world out there, snoop.
The rules that apply to airplane 135/121 don't apply to all other
types of flying.

Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.

Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:

Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Chris sounds pretty informed to me and you sound like you're a natural
bureaucrat with a check pilot background. Thank God you weren't on my
seniority list.

You're not looking for information - you want to stop HIM doing it!

If you don't want to do it - DON'T DO IT! Now let it go.

GC

snoop wrote:
Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

So Snoop, just by replacing the word "glider" in the above exchange
with "your favorite trustworthy aircraft", your whole attitude would
change?

Explain exactly why hearing the work "Lear" for example would make you
feel better?

I'm sure there's a few rotting away at airports that are marginally
airworthy, and might even have an owner who flew IFR 20 years ago, and
is just itchin' to go fly......

Bottom line - if the glider is on a clearance we MUST assume the glider
will behave just as any other aircraft. Because if we don't, then how
on earth can we assume any one of the other aircraft will behave as
well?

This whole discussion is about SOARING in clouds. Except in the
mountains, this means there WILL be a decent clearance between ground,
VMC, and cloudbase. The glider pilot is not concerned with terrain,
because in this situation it IS NOT AN ISSUE. If it were, the glider
pilot likely would not fly. You are clouding the issue by insisting
the glider operation take place at 500' AGL in fog directly over the
tower at DFW.

What we are talking about is operation at say, 6,000' AGL and above in
the middle of Kansas. The only issues are about what is required to be
legal to continue circling up into that nice towering cu. And once
topped out at FL200, the glider pops out the side, then continues on to
the next nice cloud in VMC. The glider pilot has, at all times, the
option to change course and descend if asked by ATC. The controller
and glider pilot COMMUNICATE, and establish an understanding that it
may be possible that the glider will hit sink, but in that case, there
is always the option to change course to stay clear of any traffic
below the glider.

As others have posted, flight in IMC without an autopilot can be
difficult and tiring. The glider is only using the cloud to thermal
up, then glide out the side in order to spend as little time in cloud
as possible. This XC flight has no need of any fancy navigational
equipment beyond a compass, as the pilot is planning to be VMC 95% of
the time.

-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

5Z wrote:

....
-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

Funny that despite your non existing experience and intention, you seem
to be the only one who actually understands what cloud flying in gliders
is all about.

Stefan