Cloud Flying

snoop wrote:
Chris,

I don't want to make it difficult.

Then don't. I was a freight dog, too. I always had to watch
everything with a magnifying glass to make sure I was legal to the
letter. I understand your mindset. But this isn't that.


My point here is I'm still fuzzy on the official guys (FSS, ATC)
accepting something as simple as the flight plan for our glider as you
described. From an operational viewpoint, it's clear as a bell to me,
it's simple. I've received untold numbers of pop up clearances in the
past.


You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

My point is that controllers will work with you if you work with them.
Fitting a glider into their traffic flow can be a burden to them, so
make it less so. Stay away from busy airways. If you need to transit
a busy airway, you may need to wait for a few minutes for ATC to make
room. Then when you're cleared to proceed, cross the airway quickly so
they can use it again. If they need an altitude that you've currently
got blocked, if you can, release it back to them to get the transient
through. Let's all just get along.

There are still MEAs, MOCAs, MVAs, things, that the contollers have to
govern who they turn loose in the clouds. How does the local guy work
around these. Again it appears quite simple from the operational end,
but.......

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.


As you well know most of these FAA regs have blood written on them. I
would have to have the controller himself tell me the TERPs are out the
window when it comes to my glider flying IFR.

Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

let's get those who do
file, and fly their glider IFR, to get their local ATC/FSS people to
present a paper, or talk to the local groups, about the procedures and
responsibilities of flying our gliders IFR.

What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.

Chris Fleming, F2

Fox Two wrote:

You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.

Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.


Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

Chris, I will concur that we're not flying low IFR, and we won't be
doing ILS approaches, although I have a glider accident in mind, where
the pilot did try to penetrate some LIFR weather and lost. He lived,
but there was a lot of serious head scratching on his part. The answers
I'm looking for, the fundamental, basic answers we need are, how do I
explain my right to be at 19,000ft with an airliner bearing down on me,
(your scenario), to the fed that meets me on the ramp after the part
121 captain calls this in. Your a professional pilot, what are your
words to all the basic, specific, fundamental, IFR pilot/equipment
questions that your going to face?


What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Chris, I'm not convinced, and saying people do it everyday, well let's
just say I think all USA clubs need to get the donuts out and talk this
one up. I know there are people in clubs who can get this discussion
going.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.


Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Later, I'm off to the soaring club!

snoop wrote:

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.


Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.

Snoop, we aren't navigating airways! In fact, no navigation equipment
of any kind is required to fly IFR! You need to stop thinking like a
135/121 airplane pilot. You're in a GLIDER. The world of aviation is
a big place, and most pilots are only familiar with their little slice
of it. You need to think outside of your box.

Scroll up to my first message; I've referenced the exact regs that
legalize IFR gliders. It is legal. Period.

My final case-in point: The Goodyear Blimp flies IFR over football
games all of the time. There are tens of thousands of people who are
first-person eye witnesses to this fact as they watch the blimp fly in
and out of the clouds on a snowy day. Millions more see this on TV.
I'm sure that one or two of those fans is a fed. The pilot of the
blimp is getting paid. It's a commercial operation with passengers on
board. But there is no requirement for that pilot to have an
instrument rating of any kind. He might be 1,000 feet AGL, definitely
below the lowest minimum IFR altitude for airplanes. He's IFR without
a rating, and he's perfectly legal. It's a big world out there, snoop.
The rules that apply to airplane 135/121 don't apply to all other
types of flying.

Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.

Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:
Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Snoop,

I don't know where the Region 10 competition is going to be next year,
but maybe I'll see you there.

I can understand your frustration with all of this stuff, but the point
of this forum is to be able to exchange ideas. Don't take any of it as
gospel. You're putting a lot of faith into what Shawn has to say, but
he's not perfect, either. He has repeatedly said that § 61.57 doesn't
apply to single-pilot operations, but it absolutely does. CFAR §
61.57(c)(2)(i) clearly specifies that in order to act as PIC in a
glider under IFR while solo, you need to log at least 3 hours of
instrument time in the last 6 months, of which 1 1/2 must be in gliders
(the other 1 1/2 may be in either airplanes or gliders):

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-
(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried.

Also, don't take everything you read in Soaring Magazine to be gospel
either. In last month's thread on this topic, we discussed Tom
Reesor's letter in the August SOARING magazine. He confidently claimed
that to fly a glider IFR one requires:

1. "The pilot to be instrument rated in single-engine airplanes and
also have a glider rating ... to fly a glider in clouds," and

2. "Gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel."

Neither of which is true. CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a glider
pilot must have an airplane instrument rating to fly a glider IFR, but
it doesn't specify that it needs to be a single-engine class rating:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.

And there is no FAR whatsoever that requires a glider to have a "full
gyro panel." The only gyroscopic instrument that most glider
manufacturers require for cloud flying is a "Turn & Bank Indicator with
Slip Ball."

So what do you do? Read the regs for yourself. I've referenced the
exact FARs to back up everything that I have said. Read your glider's
manual. Is your glider approved for cloud flying? If your glider has
an experimental certificate, read your operating limitations. Did the
FAA approve your glider for cloud flying? And, has your glider
received all of its required inspections?

If, after all of this you have determined that you meet all of the
requirements to fly your glider IFR, you're legal to do so.

So how do you do it? Personally, I don't file a flight plan. I only
use IFR as a tool to climb into the Class A airspace, and I never know
if the mountain wave above El Paso is good enough until I'm airborne.
My climb to 17,000 feet is VFR with El Paso Approach Control, and if
I'm still climbing strong, I'll request a handoff to Albuquerque Center
and request an IFR climb with them. They first verify my transponder
code, position and altitude, then ask for my intentions. I request
altitude blocks in 4,000 foot increments, so the first clearance that I
receive is from 16,000 to FL 200. As I climb and descend, ABQ shifts
the block up and down. My mountain wave flights have all been local in
nature, so my lateral clearance is defined by radials and distances
from El Paso VOR, which I have programmed into my GPS. When I descend
through 17,000 after my wave flight, I cancel IFR. I have never had
any difficulties. In fact, the controllers have always been more than
helpful.

As a side note, I have never, nor do I ever intend, to fly a pure
glider in a cloud. I'll wait for my Nimbus-4DM to arrive before I do
that. Now where's that lottery ticket?

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:

...Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge.

Nobody's in charge here!!!

Geez! I thought I'd left management pilots behind years ago!

GC

snoop wrote:

Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Chris sounds pretty informed to me and you sound like you're a natural
bureaucrat with a check pilot background. Thank God you weren't on my
seniority list.

You're not looking for information - you want to stop HIM doing it!

If you don't want to do it - DON'T DO IT! Now let it go.

GC

snoop wrote:
Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

So Snoop, just by replacing the word "glider" in the above exchange
with "your favorite trustworthy aircraft", your whole attitude would
change?

Explain exactly why hearing the work "Lear" for example would make you
feel better?

I'm sure there's a few rotting away at airports that are marginally
airworthy, and might even have an owner who flew IFR 20 years ago, and
is just itchin' to go fly......

Bottom line - if the glider is on a clearance we MUST assume the glider
will behave just as any other aircraft. Because if we don't, then how
on earth can we assume any one of the other aircraft will behave as
well?

This whole discussion is about SOARING in clouds. Except in the
mountains, this means there WILL be a decent clearance between ground,
VMC, and cloudbase. The glider pilot is not concerned with terrain,
because in this situation it IS NOT AN ISSUE. If it were, the glider
pilot likely would not fly. You are clouding the issue by insisting
the glider operation take place at 500' AGL in fog directly over the
tower at DFW.

What we are talking about is operation at say, 6,000' AGL and above in
the middle of Kansas. The only issues are about what is required to be
legal to continue circling up into that nice towering cu. And once
topped out at FL200, the glider pops out the side, then continues on to
the next nice cloud in VMC. The glider pilot has, at all times, the
option to change course and descend if asked by ATC. The controller
and glider pilot COMMUNICATE, and establish an understanding that it
may be possible that the glider will hit sink, but in that case, there
is always the option to change course to stay clear of any traffic
below the glider.

As others have posted, flight in IMC without an autopilot can be
difficult and tiring. The glider is only using the cloud to thermal
up, then glide out the side in order to spend as little time in cloud
as possible. This XC flight has no need of any fancy navigational
equipment beyond a compass, as the pilot is planning to be VMC 95% of
the time.

-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

5Z wrote:

....
-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

Funny that despite your non existing experience and intention, you seem
to be the only one who actually understands what cloud flying in gliders
is all about.

Stefan

5Z wrote:
snoop wrote:

This whole discussion is about SOARING in clouds.
What we are talking about is operation at say, 6,000' AGL and above in
the middle of Kansas. The only issues are about what is required to be
legal to continue circling up into that nice towering cu. And once
topped out at FL200, the glider pops out the side, then continues on to
the next nice cloud in VMC.

This has been a fascinating discussion, but this post from 5Z is the
only one which actually made any sense to me.

I don't come from the Land of the Free but from over-regulated UK. To
fly in clouds I make sure I'm not in danger of entering controlled
airspace, call on 103.4, and if no-one answers that they're in the same
cloud I climb into it. No instrument rating, nothing but my own
assessment of whether I can do it safely. That's our law. I'm sure
there's an offence of reckless flying (or equivalent), but I'm prepared
to defend my decision so off I go.

Now, if 5Z could tell me how to straighten up and pop out of the side,
rather than blundering about on strange ellipses and eventually sinking
out of the bottom, I might be able to make use of cloud climbs.

What does concern me is this fear of the regulations. OK, I'm a lawyer,
but that just means I know that there's no certainty in any laws. My
view is that if it's not specifically outlawed, and you think that it's
safe and a desirable thing to do, then you should just do it. No
prosecutor brings a case if there not a better than 50/50 chance of winning.

If we're going to restrict ourselves to what's completely risk free, why
are we flying? And if any of us stop doing what is, more likely than
not, legal in our countries, some regulator will use that as an excuse
to stop us doing it in future because there's no demand for it.

What's wrong with you guys? Was the Boston Tea Party for nothing? If you
meet the FAR requirements and want to fly in clouds, why aren't you
doing it?