Cloud Flying

snoop wrote:

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.


Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.

Snoop, we aren't navigating airways! In fact, no navigation equipment
of any kind is required to fly IFR! You need to stop thinking like a
135/121 airplane pilot. You're in a GLIDER. The world of aviation is
a big place, and most pilots are only familiar with their little slice
of it. You need to think outside of your box.

Scroll up to my first message; I've referenced the exact regs that
legalize IFR gliders. It is legal. Period.

My final case-in point: The Goodyear Blimp flies IFR over football
games all of the time. There are tens of thousands of people who are
first-person eye witnesses to this fact as they watch the blimp fly in
and out of the clouds on a snowy day. Millions more see this on TV.
I'm sure that one or two of those fans is a fed. The pilot of the
blimp is getting paid. It's a commercial operation with passengers on
board. But there is no requirement for that pilot to have an
instrument rating of any kind. He might be 1,000 feet AGL, definitely
below the lowest minimum IFR altitude for airplanes. He's IFR without
a rating, and he's perfectly legal. It's a big world out there, snoop.
The rules that apply to airplane 135/121 don't apply to all other
types of flying.

Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.

Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:
Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Snoop,

I don't know where the Region 10 competition is going to be next year,
but maybe I'll see you there.

I can understand your frustration with all of this stuff, but the point
of this forum is to be able to exchange ideas. Don't take any of it as
gospel. You're putting a lot of faith into what Shawn has to say, but
he's not perfect, either. He has repeatedly said that § 61.57 doesn't
apply to single-pilot operations, but it absolutely does. CFAR §
61.57(c)(2)(i) clearly specifies that in order to act as PIC in a
glider under IFR while solo, you need to log at least 3 hours of
instrument time in the last 6 months, of which 1 1/2 must be in gliders
(the other 1 1/2 may be in either airplanes or gliders):

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-
(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried.

Also, don't take everything you read in Soaring Magazine to be gospel
either. In last month's thread on this topic, we discussed Tom
Reesor's letter in the August SOARING magazine. He confidently claimed
that to fly a glider IFR one requires:

1. "The pilot to be instrument rated in single-engine airplanes and
also have a glider rating ... to fly a glider in clouds," and

2. "Gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel."

Neither of which is true. CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a glider
pilot must have an airplane instrument rating to fly a glider IFR, but
it doesn't specify that it needs to be a single-engine class rating:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.

And there is no FAR whatsoever that requires a glider to have a "full
gyro panel." The only gyroscopic instrument that most glider
manufacturers require for cloud flying is a "Turn & Bank Indicator with
Slip Ball."

So what do you do? Read the regs for yourself. I've referenced the
exact FARs to back up everything that I have said. Read your glider's
manual. Is your glider approved for cloud flying? If your glider has
an experimental certificate, read your operating limitations. Did the
FAA approve your glider for cloud flying? And, has your glider
received all of its required inspections?

If, after all of this you have determined that you meet all of the
requirements to fly your glider IFR, you're legal to do so.

So how do you do it? Personally, I don't file a flight plan. I only
use IFR as a tool to climb into the Class A airspace, and I never know
if the mountain wave above El Paso is good enough until I'm airborne.
My climb to 17,000 feet is VFR with El Paso Approach Control, and if
I'm still climbing strong, I'll request a handoff to Albuquerque Center
and request an IFR climb with them. They first verify my transponder
code, position and altitude, then ask for my intentions. I request
altitude blocks in 4,000 foot increments, so the first clearance that I
receive is from 16,000 to FL 200. As I climb and descend, ABQ shifts
the block up and down. My mountain wave flights have all been local in
nature, so my lateral clearance is defined by radials and distances
from El Paso VOR, which I have programmed into my GPS. When I descend
through 17,000 after my wave flight, I cancel IFR. I have never had
any difficulties. In fact, the controllers have always been more than
helpful.

As a side note, I have never, nor do I ever intend, to fly a pure
glider in a cloud. I'll wait for my Nimbus-4DM to arrive before I do
that. Now where's that lottery ticket?

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:

...Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge.

Nobody's in charge here!!!

Geez! I thought I'd left management pilots behind years ago!

GC